Clarification - definition of piracy

Hi,

I am well aware time-in is in a little under ten hours, so this probably won’t get addressed right away. I’m just about to set off for a non-Empire weekend and I’m writing this now so I don’t forget to ask.

What exactly is the definition of piracy, in terms of actions submitted through the downtime system. I’ve not submitted a fleet downtime, but the fleet page suggests four options:

a. Trade with a foreign port
b. Raid a barbarian port
c. Raid a foreign port
d. Trade with a barbarian port

And that there are a range of ports to choose from. The last two would be illegal, but you get a significant bonus.

Is piracy specifically raiding a foreign port? (ie one not officially at war with the empire) Or does raiding a barbarian port also count as piracy? The fleet page refers only to trading and raiding, not piracy. So I’m unsure if raiding and piracy are intended interchangeably,

The Blood and Salt ritual only specifies piracy (not raiding), so that’s an example of where the distinction matters from a game mechanics perspective.

Roughly speaking, there’s two orthogonal axes here.

One is the act of piracy - going somewhere, finding people, hitting them with swords, and taking their stuff. That is legal if done to barbarians, illegal if done to foreigners, and buffed by Blood and Salt. It’s also known as raiding a port.

The other is the illegal fleet actions - trading with barbarians, and raiding foreigners. The latter is known as the crime of piracy.

Due to this senate motion from a few events ago, it is no longer possible to engage in either illegal fleet action, and so Blood and Salt can now only boost raiding barbarian ports (which is legal piracy, or privateering, if you want).

piracy is that act of attacking imperial ships and ports, this is also extended to foreign nations, though there is leeway in this (saving slaves etc).

also classed as illegal is the act of trading with barbarians.

currently due to senate motions all these options have been removed from downtime actions.

[quote=“DrunkenCorsair”]piracy is that act of attacking imperial ships and ports, this is also extended to foreign nations, though there is leeway in this (saving slaves etc).

also classed as illegal is the act of trading with barbarians.

currently due to senate motions all these options have been removed from downtime actions.[/quote]

OK, but that isn’t what I’m getting at. I thought Tea had clarified it, but now I’m not sure.

I’m talking about someone with a fleet intending to raid one of the Grendel or Jotun (ie barbarian) ports over the coming season. So they find a friendly ritualist and convince them to cast Blood and Salt on their fleet.

After the event, the fleet owner submits their downtime as Raid Grendel Port. (or however the interface appears)

Does the fleet owner gain the benefits of their Blood and Salt ritual? Or does that action not count as piracy, since it was attacking an enemy target.

As an aside I realise that, if it does not work, it makes Blood and Salt pointless. But it’s within the scope of the game to submit a new senate motion to repeal the one that puts the civil servants on the ships to prevent piracy, or trade with barbarians.

you will always get the buff that a ritual will provide wether the action counts as piracy doesn’t come into the equation.

equally raiding barbarians never counts as piracy.

even simply put

rituals, upgrades etc = more loot

piracy and other illegal actions = uptime consequence

The actions are raiding or trading. Magic is divided by the type of action.

Piracy is a legal label on some actions which does not interact with magic.

[quote=“HertsJ”]OK, but that isn’t what I’m getting at. I thought Tea had clarified it, but now I’m not sure.

I’m talking about someone with a fleet intending to raid one of the Grendel or Jotun (ie barbarian) ports over the coming season. So they find a friendly ritualist and convince them to cast Blood and Salt on their fleet.

After the event, the fleet owner submits their downtime as Raid Grendel Port. (or however the interface appears)

Does the fleet owner gain the benefits of their Blood and Salt ritual? Or does that action not count as piracy, since it was attacking an enemy target.

As an aside I realise that, if it does not work, it makes Blood and Salt pointless. But it’s within the scope of the game to submit a new senate motion to repeal the one that puts the civil servants on the ships to prevent piracy, or trade with barbarians.[/quote]

Yes, they gain a 5 rank (or whatever) benefit from Blood and Salt.

[quote=“Ricohard”]The actions are raiding or trading. Magic is divided by the type of action.

Piracy is a legal label on some actions which does not interact with magic.[/quote]

But the ritual says piracy.

It means raiding, but it says piracy.

(So I’ve been using the word IC occasionally, because my character’s just a touch prone to using technical magical terms and it’s a good word. :wink: )

[quote]But the ritual says piracy.

It means raiding, but it says piracy.

(So I’ve been using the word IC occasionally, because my character’s just a touch prone to using technical magical terms and it’s a good word. :wink: )[/quote]

Is it just an unfortunate consquence of the Blood and Salt and Fleet pages being written at different times by (probably) different authors? The ritual probably should talk about raids rather than piracy.

It is a good word, I don’t want to be talking about all the awesome piracy I’m doing (to Barbarian ports/ships) in between festivals and get arrested for attacking Foreigners! Privateer seems like a good word for some nations.

Is pirate or privateer a good word for Dawn? I assume you’re some kind of seafaring questing knight.

Earl of a House of seafarers, but yes.

I’m OK to take the confusion IC to be honest - it’s never actually going to get to an accusation (“uh, yes, I pirated our enemies the Grendel last season, what exactly is the problem here?”) and confusion can be fun. :wink:

If I wanted to avoid confusion I’d probably go “raiding barbarians,” “raiding foreigners” and so on - they’re pretty clear which is legal and which isn’t.

Does Blood and Salt have any advantages over The Lure of Distant Shores?

Different outputs. LoDS is trade only, B&S is raid only.

There is some negative effect of raiding on the Barbarian economy, although exactly what this is is unknown. (Although I’m not sure that’s a bad thing)

Beside from that a roleplaying effect which creates more drama. That’s added value right.

Blood and Salt has hilarious effects on poise.

The term Piracy is the legal term covering “Crimes of the Sea” from what I can tell.

This happens to include the act of piratical raiding of Foreign fleets and ports (diplomatically disastrous and a detriment to the empire - likely to be revised if the Empire enters war with a foreign nation), as well as trade with barred partners (barbarians and enemies of the state) which might manifest as smuggling and other dodgy dealings.

Raiding Barbarians is never illegal and in fact hinders their efforts to gather resources and sustain a war effort. Organised raiding of enemy ports might have encouraging results on a campaign, though as with military units contributing to such a strategy might not yield the same resource rewards as other options.

[quote=“Ataraxia”]The term Piracy is the legal term covering “Crimes of the Sea” from what I can tell.

This happens to include the act of piratical raiding of Foreign fleets and ports (diplomatically disastrous and a detriment to the empire - likely to be revised if the Empire enters war with a foreign nation), as well as trade with barred partners (barbarians and enemies of the state) which might manifest as smuggling and other dodgy dealings.

Raiding Barbarians is never illegal and in fact hinders their efforts to gather resources and sustain a war effort. Organised raiding of enemy ports might have encouraging results on a campaign, though as with military units contributing to such a strategy might not yield the same resource rewards as other options.[/quote]

The word is also, helpfully, used as a technical magical term meaning “raiding anyone” on at least one ritual page.

It is the Blood and Salt page where there is most room for confusion as it only talks about piracy, not raiding. I suppose it should have been obvious that a Spring ritual is not going to care about the laws of humans and orcs! Sular’s Promise has exactly the same problem, but coming from the other direction (Sular’s Promise benefits those fleets not engaging in piracy).

I did a comprehensive search!

The Imperial Bourse page talks about “Bourse seats that are allocated on the basis of raids conducted by military units, **piracy **by fleets, or similar are based on the total effective size of all the contributing resources over the last four seasons.” but in the description of the Broken Shore Bounty states: “whichever fleet performs the biggest **raid **against the Grendel port of Dubhtraig”. (emphasis added). I’ll leave it up to future senators/bourse to work out what to do if the Grendel stop being barbarians, or the port of Dubhtraig is occupied and becomes part of the Empire.

The resources summary on profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Resource says "Fleet - can trade with foreigners, to produce items or money, or commit piracy, to steal items or money from foreigners or barbarians. " (emphasis added), but the Fleet page itself does not use the word piracy or pirate at all. Only raiding.

It’s not totally explicit enough for my preferences, but the Brass Coast Corsair and Economics pages both attempt to distinguish between Pirate and Privateer. Which is presumably a raid on a friendly or barbarian target respectively.

To address this point, I would like to believe that this is true but I suspect it is one of those “below the abstraction layer” things. I do not see anything which would lead me to believe a raid on Dubhtraig means there is a Grendel mine which lost 2 Green Iron from its production this season, or that there is now a Grendel artisan who can’t afford to make their magic items.

How it actually occurs is one of the few hidden mechanics of the game (or it might just be something the plot writers take into account.) However, the recent situation involving a Grendel Salt Lord offering to pull an army out if we reduce raiding his port (Appalus) does clearly indicate it has some effect on the grand campaign.

Although the individual annoyed Grendel artisan probably does fall below the abstraction layer.

Sorry to be a humourless git, but I feel I should add a note of warning for people reading the above:

To anyone checking this thread to try and remember which of the Grendel ports it was that there were rumours about some Imperial citizens being asked not to raid (the two Grendel ports are Apulus and Dubhtraig): I strongly recommend that for accuracy’s sake you acquire your information on that via your IC contacts rather than this forum (profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Downtime#Keeping_the_game_live). If you don’t have IC contacts to ask, post on your nation board asking for who to contact and someone will be along to help.

[quote=“Iulian”]Sorry to be a humourless git, but I feel I should add a note of warning for people reading the above:

To anyone checking this thread to try and remember which of the Grendel ports it was that there were rumours about some Imperial citizens being asked not to raid (the two Grendel ports are Apulus and Dubhtraig): I strongly recommend that for accuracy’s sake you acquire your information on that via your IC contacts rather than this forum (profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Downtime#Keeping_the_game_live). If you don’t have IC contacts to ask, post on your nation board asking for who to contact and someone will be along to help.[/quote]

Considering that Senate judgements are published on the wiki, (possibly quite shortly since the Synod ones are up) and that this was purely pointing out that raiding clearly has some effect. I hardly think bit falls foul of those rules.

Although I do apologise for getting the port wrong.