@tehancocks, Thank you, that is very sensible advice that I intend to follow.
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my response. I appreciate the help.
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@tehancocks, Thank you, that is very sensible advice that I intend to follow.
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my response. I appreciate the help.
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So thoughts:
Maybe incorporate some of the more Jotun/Wintermarky aspects into a poppet/poppets. A poppet that includes animal teeth or fur, is still a poppet and clearly marcher. It also could look really unsettling, and aspects of Jotun culture around strenght merging with Marcher ones seems like it could happen over 30 ergegoreless years.
The Jotun and Wintermark are both very dangerous animals based, trying going more farmland/countryside with similar themes, if it’s obvious would be more marcher.
That’s true, but I suspect the Jotun would take the good stuff and the thralls would be left with the less-good: hardwearing but perhaps unevenly spun, unevenly woven.
Of course it’s very hard to find unevenly woven cloth to buy, but you do sometimes find some that’s woven from unevenly spun yarn with slubs and whatnot. (Still, I absolutely wouldn’t suggest that you should restrict yourself to such fabric.)
Great idea. Maybe achievable if you use fabric from an old curtain (charity-shop?) where some parts are more sun-faded than others.
…especially if thralls get cast-offs that the Jotun consider too worn-out to wear for themselves. (I’m not sure whether or not the Jotun would do that though… would probably need a comment from PD.)
I agree about the coif being very Marcher, and a poppet would be great.
The one thing from earlier suggestions where I’m seriously doubtful is the idea of animal skulls as adornment. Two reasons: one is that it would be a really big step away from Marcher culture towards the Jotun, and the other reason is that I don’t think the Jotun would allow it. Their look-and-feel page says
Fur trim, pelts and tokens made from teeth or bone are additional items that can be added to represent glorious kills a Jotun warrior has made whilst hunting. They consider powerful creatures such as dire lions, dire bears, dire boars and mandowla to be potent symbols of strength and might; many Jotun standards are topped with skulls of such animals.
…so I think any thralls wearing things to represent their “glorious kills” or “symbols of strength and might” would be in serious trouble. Once free of the Jotun, would a Marcher want to start wearing such Jotun symbols? I suppose they might if they had absorbed some Jotun outlook, but the Egregore magic keeping the Marcher culture solid would make it unlikely.
@McGonigle, Thank you for your thoughts. A poppet with teeth would be very scary (in my opinion). ![]()
I think a lot of the Jotun/Marcher merger would come down to a) how strong the egregore magic is, i.e. is it strong enough to last through the 32 years Mournwold has been under Jotun rule? I suspect that it is, especially as for almost all of those years the Empire had a foothold in the territory in the Greensward; and b) how old the character is, as the ones who grew up without the egregore bond would be more likely to embrace Jotun culture (as witness the Marcher humans fighting alongside the Jotuns, and the ones who went with the Jotuns when the Empire regained the Mournwold).
With the dangerous animals, if you were a character who had an egregore bond to the Mournwold, you would come up against Marcher totem magic, which uses dangerous animals for things like beserk rage, and definitely not as everyday totems:
“In the Marches, the tradition of calling on spirit animals is roughly divided into two categories. Domesticated animals are called on for positive aspects - oxen for strength and fortitude, hounds for loyalty and keen senses, pigs for cleverness and adaptability, cats for cunning and subtlety, rabbits and hares for speed and agility, and so on. Wild animals are considered more dangerous - while wolves, bears, and boars may be evoked to grant great strength, they are often tied to uncontrolled or dangerous magic. A Marcher magician who instils the spirit of a bear into a target is much more likely to use images of bloodlust and berserk rage than a Witnermark or Varushkan magician working similar magic.” from Totem Magic, under Spirit Animals.
Not something that I would want to meddle with.
@Canashir, Thank you for your comments. I agree with not using any sort of trim that is reserved for warriors, and with the good suggestions in the thread for making things look old/worn/hand-me-down/mended.
Once I get to the specifics of the costume, I am hampered by not knowing enough about the Jotun-Thrall culture eg Did they pass clothes down to the thralls? Did they take cloth from the thralls, or just leave them enough fleeces to make their own? Barring any further elucidation by PD, I think the best we can do is say ‘This is how it worked on my farm under my Jotun overseer, yours would have been different’ and leave it up to the individual to decide. I haven’t even started on the question of favoured thralls with easier lives, and how they would have dressed.
"Most thralls are condemned to a miserable live of hardship, but those few with valuable skills live a better life, serving the clan as traders, crafters or sailors on the Jotun vessels." from Jotun
Those favoured thralls would have - more cloth to sew clothes? More food? Higher status among the thralls? What would be considered a valuable skill by the Jotun. Crafting is mentioned, and fighting is a given, but what about healing, apothecaries, lore magicians etc? How do they fit in?
These are the questions that keep me awake when I am trying to sleep. ![]()
Thank you for taking the time to read and give thoughtful replies. Every reply helps me to clarify my ideas and opens up new avenues of thought (I will never be able to see a poppet without checking it for teeth), and I appreciate each and every one of you.
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Animal skulls would also be a big step towards iconic Wintermark.
Possibly look to some small plain flowers/stems, like wild garlic, long grass, maybe carrot tops.
@Penny, Thank you. I hadn’t thought of that.
@Mr_Haystacks, I’m not sure why my character would need the plants? How do you see them being used in costume?
Thank you for contributing to the discussion. ![]()
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Stuff to bear in mind:
Jotun appearance is quite similar to Wintermark, specifically Stienr in some ways and so you’ll want to avoid that.
While Jotun are harsh, and have a two tiered society, they aren’t deliberately cruel, they wouldn’t deliberately leave Thralls starving (for one, the Thralls oath means they’re supposed to protect them, and deliberately causing them to starve isn’t exactly doing that).
Marcher clothes of good quality, and stand the test of time, furthermore they will mend things rather than make new clothes. We have real world equivalents of these clothes, and have lasted more than 30 years. To this end I would believe that a Mournwold Marcher would dress like any other Marcher, however their clothes would be old hand me downs and so lots of patching repaired seams, ageing material.
Jotun didn’t care if you actively aclimated to being a Jotun Thrall, only that you were loyal and obedient, a local Jarl wouldn’t give a shit if a Marcher Thrall dressed more like them.
I would consider places like occupied France and other occupied countries, those that were occupied only did what was needed not to annoy their occupiers, those that did more were collaborators, so I would consider if you’re trying to present a group that were active collaborators with the Jotun (after occupation, we’re not talking about traitors, though some may treat you as such) may look a little more like Jotun, maybe a symbol of the Jarl on them. These types might be the ones responsible with greater trust, gathering grain from other Houses and other trusted logistics.
Basically tell a story with your clothing. Every little thing you did in your clothing can tell a story of collaboration or indirect resistance.
In the field I have seen wild flowers used to decorate coifs and such.
It was an idea i had to try and say “Got naff all, Still look awesome”
@Michael, Thank you for all those different points. There are a lot of things to consider in Mournwolder thrall clothing; far more than I expected when I started this topic.
@Mr_Haystacks, Thank you. The wildflower coif is a wonderful idea.
Thank you everyone for replying and continuing to generate such wonderful and original ideas for Mournwold human thrall clothing. I appreciate them all.
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The Jotun don’t view magic as a tool for war, but we don’t have much on their attitude to non-warlike magic. That being said being a landskeeper might have it’s risks, but I can imagine it’s still a position of some respect, even if it is just from the other thralls.
The Jotun view herbs as sacred, and it’s actually the role of a Jotun priest to administer them. I can imagine that a marcher with a herb garden, who co-operated and was respectful. Might manage to gain some favour, although this might be looked on badly by their fellows.
Actually Marcher totem magic could be a really interesting way to do this, I’m not sure how well it fits with what you are thinking concept wise, but now I have a concept of a verminmancer.
Marcher Landskeeper, having spent much of their life under occupation, and having developed a magical practice that makes more use of the wild animal totems that most other Marchers wouldn’t call upon. After all farmyard animals don’t really have a good resonance with sneaking and hiding, whereas Foxes and Rats do. It’s very routed in Marcher ideals, and you could include using parts of the animal in a way that may have evolved from desperation but still are for Marcher reasons and make sense in Marcher traditions.
Less beserk rage animals, but probably making clear that the totems have other negative effects, the fox might make someone inclined to be selfish or less community oriented.
I’m honestly not sure if that’s a path you want to go down, but it might be going on my backup concept list
@McGonigle, Thank you for those ideas. I think a verminmancer is very Marcher. It’s not for me, but it would be a fantastic concept for someone to play. I agree that we don’t know anything about the Jotun attitude to ritual magic off the battle field. On the battle field, I have found the following bits and pieces:
“As near as the scouts of the Seventh Wave can tell, the new Jotun forces include many thralls - human and orc alike - trained in the medicinal arts, and even some magician-healers.” from 380 Spring Equinox Winds of War
“The majority of Jotun magicians appear to focus of healing and restoring the limbs, armaments or general health of the warriors. There are few battle-magicians among them, and even those tend to focus on swift casting the heal and purify incantations, or on empowering warriors rather than the more aggressive spells.” from Jotun (under Magic)
So possibly a thrall who was a magician with healing spells or one who was a chirurgeon/physick would be a valued thrall because they could help heal Jotun on (and off) the battlefield - maybe, possibly.
Thank you for taking the time to reply and coming up with such creative concepts.
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Cheap and easy way to get the look of clothes which have been taken apart & remade is to look around charity shops for clothes in fabrics you like, and remake them to suit your shape & character. This also gives you nicely worn-in fabric, & for expensive fabrics like linen is often much cheaper than buying new.
@Ceri, Thank you. I hadn’t thought of that, and it is a great way to get that worn and remade look.
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The way I imagine it, the biggest difference could well be the work itself, with the “miserable life of hardship” being one of hard physical labour in the fields in all sorts of weather, or in mines or something… the kind of work that leads to musculoskeletal problems or hacking coughs or other occupational illnesses. I suppose “hardship” could also mean barely adequate rations and accommodation, with no comforts.
The “better life” might include better food, a warm room rather than a cold crowded dormitory…
Of course, all of us including me are just making this up, and you’re definitely on the right track when you say
PD tends to encourage that sort of approach in general.
@Canashir, Thank you for your ideas.
We are all making things up as we go, and for me that is the fun part about creating a character. I’m happy to hear that PD encourages the individual creative touch.
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