Newbie economic question

[OrionD]

During this longest dark I’ve been thinking about how I might want my character to develop and was wondering (as a new player) if there was realistically any chance of acquiring enough funds to, say, purchase a bourse seat at the auction in a year or two of play. It seems like the well- established players have too many resources to challenge. I recognize that this is a result of hard work and graft by the long- term players, after building resources for the better part of a decade those players are naturally going to be in a position to bid more. Even if one went full trader all the time, you would be competing against others who were also focused to trade and had years of resource stockpiling ahead of you.

I’m not certain that this is a bad thing, mind you. Perhaps this is intentional and PD meant there to be a class system develop, as in ancient Rome. It is ‘Empire’ after all, and all empires have their haves and have-nots. I’m just curious whether it’s an achievable goal for a new player.

(Or perhaps are there sources of funds which I was unaware of? Skirmishes that yield treasure hoards etc?)

[Squeek_D]

As far as I’d gathered- as another ‘welp guess first event ever won’t be in April’ player- is that you can make coin in ways that aren’t hardwired into the game in a manner that your character can build up their coffers.

Basically I’ve gathered that if you can bake/craft small things to take on field to sell for in-character coin, it seems that’s an encouraged way of building character coin in addition to resources provided in character build

Also, as far as the forum has indicated to me- anyone in Anvil is already in the ‘we’re well off, even if we’re not absolutely rolling in wealth’ grouping, rather than ‘this is an accurate representation of the full population of the Empire’s Nations’

A Bourse seat seems to indicate (to me, at least) more a ‘I can play the financial dances better than most’ style person- so, in real world terms, a younger stock broker, someone who has the canny/willing to be able to take inherent risks for a pay off.
I would also wager a guess that it’s to encourage folks to be collaborative in how they approach dealing with the financials. After all, a ‘you help me get coin so I can get the Bourse seat’ offers a chance at more people to play more variants on the game that “I’m gonna go it alone” attitude does.

[Noserenda]

There are like 3 tiers of rich in Empire and folks are constantly moving up them afaik, coming in early is definitely an advantage but its pretty far from insurmountable if you put the work in There are a hell of ways to do that ofc.

If nothing else, hoarding wealth is against the Empire’s religion so the wealthy tend to at least put the show of constantly spending their money on various things, a lot of which goes to other players for their stuff rather than out of play, so in Empire trickle down economics does actually almost work

[Geoffrey_Willoughby]

Some fair comments by Squeek_D there…

bear in mind it’s not so much the well-established players (although knowing field economics inside-out and backwards certainly helps), but the characters, and groups of characters.

Where a dozen characters can pool resources, nominate one amongst them to handle the financial trading, the auctions, the loans and the investments… that character (and of course player) will get quite good at it. Which builds a reputation, and financial clout, which allows further opportunities… and so on.

And in that case, a lot of it is hard skills (those of the player). Are you able to invest, make loans, hunt a good deal, put in the footwork, expand your capital…? These are not skills on the sheet, and you the player would need to put in a lot of work to get anywhere (this is about how far I got… I looked at it and decided to got the political route instead…).

Some of the bourse seats are held by consortia, groups of groups which fund one of their number to the seat in exchange for getting first dibs on the riches. For that, you’d need to inspire the confidence (and cash) of many others… again, hard skills.

If you got to the position where a new Bourse seat was claimed or awarded (eg new ones have popped up recently Liathaven and Ossium), you might be able to win a political free-for-all to get it awarded to you, or it might be auctioned off, or get passed directly to Imperial funds (most likely).

But PCs die… on the battlefield and the skirmish, or players cease to visit… and then their seats become vacant… I wonder if a seat can be willed to someone until the next auction…

…your chances of, as a single player, stomping up to the Bourse Seat Auctions with the hundreds of thrones to reasonably bid for a seat is unlikely (inflation has been a killer, but it’s also funded the armies…). But there are other ways…

It is an achievable goal for a new player… but it would be very difficult, and rather slow.

(and no, no skirmishes have led to folk coming back covered in cash… )

[OrionD]

Wouldn’t it be a great skirmish though? They should just do it once, it would be LEGENDARY.

[CharlieP]

Most Bourse seats are not held by a person, yes there is a name for the bottom on the seat, but they are usually backed by a consortium or syndicate of their nation’s interested parties.
Getting involved with the syndicate, which may well mean having a say in where those resources get spent, is definitely a year 1 achievable objective.
Certainly in the group I belong to the actual person whose name is on the seat is not the one with the most money, most influence or biggest voice. We usually go for reliable, able to take direction, and unlikely to die stupidly in battle! Whilst getting your name on the books is a source of Pride, it’s not actually a show of Prosperity - that would be what you do with the wains!

[OrionD]

@CharlieP that makes a lot of sense. Are these syndicates all ‘traders’ or are there a mix of skills?

[Emmanovi]

@Geoffrey_Willoughby

I wonder if a seat can be willed to someone until the next auction…

No. From the wiki:

When a Bourse seat holder dies or loses their title for any other reason, then they receive back any money they paid for the seat - in proportion to the number of seasons of production remaining. If there are two seasons production left, they get half their money back.

The seat is auctioned off again - and the refund is paid to the seat holder or their estate after the auction is concluded. Any shortfall is taken from the Imperial treasury, any excess is added to it. There is no refund payable if a title is resigned.

[CharlieP]

Trader isn’t a skill as such, there’s no XP spend for it anyway. My character build is healer mage, I just happened to be in the right place and was interested.

We probably have a slightly higher percentage of Artisans, as if they were the ones willing to walk around for their materials to create stuff they’re probably also the ones who like playing with the maths and making the connections which is what really sets apart a good trader from a general one. (We have accounts documents and spreadsheets because some people find these fun! ).

My character mostly interested in where the funds get disbursed, and how we decide which of the many projects that want our hard earned cash and materials should get them which is a complex balancing act of value judgements in itself. Oh and the fact we have tea and cake at our meetings.

[Noserenda]

I can indeed say a smaaaaall fortune has turned up on a skirmish before, like not a bourse seat but a looooot of cake.

[wraith33]

@OrionD
If your interested in Bourse seats, i did a thing a while back that might give you some good info

The Average Cost of Bourse Seats and True Liao

I like graphs. I like money. i like economics. in the spirit of all these things i made graphs of the average costs of Bourse seats and True Liao. i got this information from the wiki (Bourse seats and the prices for true Liao are in the Synod notes). im not discussing the prices of the actual materials (as that would be IC discussion), im just taking numbers from the wiki and making them look nice. so, without further adieu Here it is! there are multiple pages so look in the bottom left to …

[OrionD]

@wraith33 thank you, super interesting

[OrionD]

@Noserenda I’d love to hear this story!

[Noserenda]

Unfortunately not everyone involved is dead yet so ill have to sit on it for now to spare the guilty

[Anrawel]

That’s a big disincentive for Bourse seat holders to go into battle. And, potentially, an incentive for murder. Perhaps the Empire would gain from charging the holder’s group a small fee to continue with the seat.

[Anrawel]

A treasure skirmish is unlikely to get chosen over an opportunity to save land and free prisoners unless it was to be put towards funding an army. But if you’re good enough at battles, you can loot enchanted weapons that match your own (they hand over the ribbon enchantment, not the item), which could be very valuable.

[Emmanovi]

@Anrawel

That’s a big disincentive for Bourse seat holders to go into battle. And, potentially, an incentive for murder.

I think this is game design. Character death is a general disincentive for anyone to go into battle, and players focusing on the Bourse game are probably more less likely to take the battlefield anyway.

Murder is probably the easiest way to force a new auction for a Bourse seat, yes (Excommunication is rather difficult to pull off), but it’s still very difficult to murder someone and get away with it.

@Anrawel

Perhaps the Empire would gain from charging the holder’s group a small fee to continue with the seat.

I suspect any such charge would be unconstitutional. No other Imperial Title can be “inherited” in this way, and this fee would probably fall foul of the “no additional taxes” provision. If anything, such a change would only continue to centralise Bourse seats in large groups.

[Noserenda]

You appear confused between skirmishes and battles there, though ive definitely monstered at least one treasure battle too so they do happen. But skirmishes always happen, no choice involved, assuming you can find enough warm bodies, which unless its raining is pretty easy.

Looting bodies is a completely different skill to fighting too, its not so much the front ranks who get the chance at looting as they are usually busy with Orcs, second rank and support troops usually hoover up all the ribbons, though you would have to be preposterously lucky to ever get rich doing that, though there are some nice items out on the monsters.

[Noserenda]

And yeah, Bourse seat owners dont go fighting, they have the middle classes for that

[Kai_G]

Which is ironic, since the economy is ultimately focused towards funding fighting (through magic weapons, armor, talismans, and potions). So, for those groups that take Bourse seats to make a profit and don’t assist battle fighters are essentially making battles deadlier at the expense of other players.