Query on Accoutrement slot

General The Rules
#1

While I am sure it is to limit the overall amount of magical item modifiers you can have on your character, with balanced largely aimed at combat and that it is simpler with the understanding that everyone has a weapon, and everyone really should have some sort of armour; the Accoutrement slot confuses me.

Is the basis of the broad category simplicity? Certainly I can respect capping everyone’s magical items at 3, I ask, however, as in my eyes there seems to be two types of overarching effects here:

Combat Effects & Other:

Combat Effects would cover things like:
[ul]]Get it Together on two targets at once/:m]
]Use Two-Handed Weapon/:m]
]1 rank in Endurance/:m][/ul]

Other:
[ul]]Gain Rank in a Ritual to make your boats trade or raid better/:m]
]Able to go to Hall of Worlds/:m]
]Use Herbs in place of other Herbs when brewing Potions/:m][/ul]

Broadly speaking it seems odd that:

I could have
Pair of Swords = Shatter when both hit
Heavy Armour = Extra 3 ranks Endurance
Trinket = Gain 3 hits when Venomed

or

Sword = Impale with Hero points
Heavy Armour = 2 Hero Ponts
Shield = Gain 1 Hit when I use a Hero Point

But if I had to visit the hall of worlds and use a Pauper’s Key, or was asked to brew a potion for someone on the same day as a battle and had to use that Cauldron, I’m not going to be able to use anything combat related in that last slot.

Not to say there aren’t rituals (or people who would appreciate your non-battle related rituals), potions and chaps in the Hall of Worlds who can’t affect battles too

#2

Spare a thought for the Archmages, who must either leave their bling with a trusted noncombatant or go into battle magic-item-less… :slight_smile:

#3

It’s largely intentional to discourage magic-item “golfbagging.” We want a system where you make choices, and sometimes those choices include what magic items you are bonded to.

#4

Iulian; Archmages that go on to battle probably want to make sure that news is spread on what day they are going as their belt and robe my be unusable that day, or their personal rank be 2 lower.

Andy: I can understand it from the point of preventing “I shall now go through my caddy of magical weapons”. Though the area it is limiting makes it a non-decisions anywho, one sword, brill.

However, Mages would still be looking at having enchanted combat gear and non-battle gear, twice as much gear as a non-caster might use (perhaps thematically suitable?) but there also an apothecary has on field crafting that can’t be done in battle; so has a skill potentially calling in an extra magic item. Despite there being only a limited number of times you can do your Coven rituals, where every magnitude counts, you can at least use your Sanguine Staff tomorrow, thinks your mage with his However, it does start adversely affecting people with these options when Quests are included. Off I pop one morning, using my Pauper’s Key to go chat to my group’s Coven who are meeting with the Archmage. No problem, battle was done yesterday, I wont be needing that. Turns out I get back to find we have a quest. Now my trusty endurance and fortitude shield has to stay at home.

If I had been in a duel and used my Bravo’s Blade, well, I can still fight with that instead of my Bear Claws, even if I really wanted the Shatter. Or, more to the point, I’m still going to hit things at the end of the day.

Choosing to substitute some herbs means I can’t wear my anti poison trinket on the Quest vs Druj.

I’ve forfeited my teacup because I wanted to use a salt shaker at breakfast, and now I’ve been invited to a teaparty. Everyone else going to the surprise teaparty still has their teacups D=

#5

Yep. You only get one special power a day.

That’s a deliberate feature of the Empire magic item design.

So as a mage, for example, you have to make the choice about whether combat enhancements or non-combat enhancements are better value for you. Neither of those has a guaranteed right answer, but you can’t pick both. Just like every other magic item slot clash, the aim is to force making a choice for the character, not to allow doing everything extra.

The flipside is that most of them are nice-to-haves, not essentials. And you can replicate the really off-the-wall effects, like the Pauper’s Key or the Abraxus Stone, with ritual magic (but again, you’re trading off your enchantment slot if you use the abraxus-stone-ritual, so you can’t also have +2 hits from an enchantment. What’s the threat you’re most scared of?)

#6

One special power per day doesn’t hold up does it? I can pick one enchantment, then cast another one when I get out of the Battle.

I use my Escharotic Cauldron, no Abraxis Stone in Battle that day.
Mage Casts his Abraxis Enchantment, can use his trading resource ritual, and then later why not put on a new Enchantment

#7

[quote=“Ferrero”]One special power per day doesn’t hold up does it? I can pick one enchantment, then cast another one when I get out of the Battle.

I use my Escharotic Cauldron, no Abraxis Stone in Battle that day.
Mage Casts his Abraxis Enchantment, can use his trading resource ritual, and then later why not put on a new Enchantment[/quote]

But your enchantment breaks when you cast a new one. Magic items don’t.

#8

[quote=“tea”]

[quote=“Ferrero”]One special power per day doesn’t hold up does it? I can pick one enchantment, then cast another one when I get out of the Battle.

I use my Escharotic Cauldron, no Abraxis Stone in Battle that day.
Mage Casts his Abraxis Enchantment, can use his trading resource ritual, and then later why not put on a new Enchantment[/quote]

But your enchantment breaks when you cast a new one. Magic items don’t.[/quote]

And costs more Crystal Mana. And might require the use of a Coven Bond, or a potion.

#9

Womble: Magic items, too, require resources; it was a considered point.

Tea: That might be the case, but I can renew that Enchantment; I could use up an Enchantment and cast a new one. I will only cast my +2 Hits before battle/quests, it doesn’t matter if I used Abassadorial Gatekeeper to go into the Hall of Worlds and sacrifice that for the Hits, I’m still fine for the battle. If I had to use my Key, too bad for the Quest you find out about. Things are out of your hands in this case, on things that take Seasons to work wtih. No matter how much that item still exists, I cannot use it today. The rule is not “one special power a day” it is “one bonded magic item a day of any one category” The nature of the items puts a division where there are a few items that a smaller cross-section would want to use, which are pushed very far out of consideration owing to the non-decision put on them by Accoutrements covering combat items and non-com. In effect, really only the Apothecary Items, specific ritual masks, and the Key could be considered entirely non-combative.

Fortunately, I can’t see this ever having an impact on my character given the only thing I’d use not combat related is the Key, and I have Gatekeeper available to me any time (I do personally consider the apothecary items a waste as the only time I would be in such a hurry to use them, would be on the battle field, where I can’t walk to GOD anyway to brew)

So, given the current state of the question: The reason for the decision is specifically to control the amount of magic on a player only in relation to magic items. For further considerations, I should raise issue with specific items.

#10

Poor example there as Ambassadorial Gatekeeper is not an enchantment and does not overright your +2 hits.
I’m not sure I see what the issue is. A person can spend a silly amount of IC resources and have more than three items bonded to them and golf bag them and it is inconvenient. Or they can just get three and then broaden into enchantments and potions, (and there is no limit on the number of hit/mana/hero point restorers you can chug a day)
If you cast an battle enchant fresh each battle rather than sticking with a season long that costs you double or triple depending how many you go on. Escalating costs to do everything is a theme to encourage you to empower your friends instead

#11

Even if that makes some of the items completely uneconomic to you as you would prefer battle related items, consider that at least those who don’t take to the battlefield might consider them useful.

#12

A recurring theme in Empire is: “You can’t do it all. Choose.”

You can’t hold 2 Imperial positions. You can’t be in 2 meetings at once. You can’t have all the Magic Items you want. You can’t go to all the battles (even if you’ve got a Mercenary Standard, you’re supposed to be monstering one of them).

And if you want to chop and change your enchantments, it keeps costing you Crystals; once you’ve bought that second item for a slot, it’s yours for a year, so you could, theoretically, swap between Key and Shield any number of times in a day, if swapping and using the items’ powers were not exclusive.

#13

Taxellor: I didn’t know the name of the enchantment for the Abraxus stone equivalent Tea mentioned; you are indeed right. I doubt anyone would be confused over the point being made that Enchantments can be cast and used multiple times, whereas as soon as an item is used no other bonded items could be used.

The issue that was being raised in this topic was that the one item a day rule, and where decisions have been distilled down to try and make them binary as possible, affects the non-combat accoutrements disproportionately.

No one is suggesting carrying a golfbag of items, and the Refs have pointed out that the only reason for the Accoutrements distilliation is to control that issue. With regards to casting for each battle; most groups do that; One of our battle enchants costs 3 mana to our specialist, vs a year long item costing 29 resources. The economics of it are beside the topic I was raising, but thank you for your interest.

With regard to your second post: It is possible to edit your posts if you want to add in things you have missed. In relation to non-combatants; I was a non-combatant until exceptionally recently. There are a lot of us! In fact the Apothecary magic items are specifically non-combative. The reason why the Apothecary item is non economic is that the only time it is worth using, is when you are IN combat, where it cannot be used at all =X The playerbase that is combative is vast, and have to be considered too; and there remains a very large amount of ritualists, priests, artisans, physicks and apothecaries who take to the battlefield who likely have little focus for combat. It doesn’t mean that, if you were a well wealthed chap, that you wouldn’t be equipped. This was a post looking at the mechanics of the system itself. It doesn’t actually affect me, it is simply about understanding the system and raising a perceived issue.

Womble: This has been said by both myself and the Refs. There is no confusion here. You get 1 Magic Weapon, 1 Magic Body, 1 Magic Accoutrement.

You can have as many as you like but only one will work per day. The point being raised was that it seemed to be putting undue weight against certain non-combative items. While you might make this decision against Battles, of which there is only one of; Quests can be attended as many times as you like.

As mentioned, never a problem I will face as I have no reason to be bound to any of the items that I wouldn’t want if I were going into a combative situation

I am more than happy to keep discussing with you, but I considered everything that needed to be said, said by the refs and myself; They are like this because the Rules wish to achieve X. Y being a side-effect is not enough of a consideration. At this point what I should be doing is raise issues with Z to make them avoid Y without affecting X

#14

Only if your character considers combat more important than their non-combat duties. In which case, yay for us non-combatants.

You bring up the Escharotic Cauldron and similar items as an example of this problem, but really they’re rather unconnected.

The reason Escharotic Cauldron is generally useless isn’t that it takes up the same slot as combat items… it’s that it’s relatively easy to trade herbs, thanks to the existence of the Anvil Hospital.

Separating out the two types of trinkets would mean that non-combatants are less likely to get the trinkets we want; because combatants can have them as well.

It means that combatants have four slots, while non-combatants have three.

And then of course you get the next question: Why can’t I have both armour and robes/vestments? Why can’t I have a battle wand and a ritual stave? If combat and non-combat trinkets count as different slots, why not clothing and weapons?

#15

But you are suggesting golf bagging. You want your proposed fantastically wealthy character to have their combat set of equipment, (Magic weapon, armour and shield say,) and then swap out to their Anvil equipment set, (Icon, Priest Robe and Religious Talisman say,) once they leave the battlefield. The rules currently allow a character to own all these items and bond to and use a different set or sub set each day.
This to discourage single characters having loads of items to cover every eventuality and to instead encourage spreading power.
Encounter long enchants by comparison encourage spreading power by it being cheaper to give one cleave to three people than to give three cleaves to one person. It is also cheaper to enchant someone for a season than to enchant them for two seperate battles. That flexibility of single battle enchants has a cost.

#16

Taxellor: if you consider that golfbagging, then you would be conceeding that the system at present has failed. Perhaps I am biased by being in the League, but its not particularly heavy wealth to have combat and off combat items. My balls made 2 thrones 6 crowns alone last event. Many items are 0 reource to 7 resource cost, afterall.

Further, I am specifically NOT suggesting they should be able to change their entire loadout after the battle. I only refer to the broad category of accoutrements having issue when Quests are considered

Kingreaper:
I don’t agree on combatants and noncombatants having equal opportunity to an item an issue. Non combatants have access to other noncombatabts when combatants can’t. In my limited experience trading, objects are usually commissioned for the following event. Where not, 1st battle is a great time for purchases.

The reason trinkets raises issue is entirely their broadness. a shield taking the same slot as the cauldron as the mask as the shears; your vestments still provide their effect on battlefields; where annointing and exorcisms and hallowing could affect the entire mission. Having +1 Spring rank, when suddenly you must dispose of the corpse before of raises? huge.

The Weapon and Armour slots are all effective to some extent on battle. Cauldron never can be.

which is why the issue is with a small selection of items, rather than changing the definitions, as I have already noted.

With regard to the cauldron issue being Anvil Hospital; certainly that is a part of it for those who support it, but then I don’t need to touch the hospital for 2 to 1 to not be worth it. The only time it would ever be worth it, as said, would be on the battlefield; where you can’t brew :3

#17

And your balls made a sum equivalent to roughly two and a half characters’ entire income (resource and all) last event, and I’m not seeing a Senate motion to purchase them, so that money ultimately came from people who prefer your balls to magic weapons. You’re effectively wielding the magic weapons that two and a half other people aren’t wielding, because they traded their chance at magic weapons for surprisingly un-salty and allegedly quite excellent chocolate cambion balls - so yes, I think it’s fair to say that having threeish thrones to throw around personally is heavy wealth.

The virtue of Prosperity looks quite different if there isn’t an upper limit to how much bling one character can physically drip with. We found this out in Maelstrom, where there was more than an order of magnitude difference in combat power between characters depending on their wealth.

#18

Some balls are held for austerity, and some for fancy dress, but when their held for prosperity, they’re the balls I like best. My balls are always trading; to the left and to the right. It’s my believe that my big balls should be held every night.

I feel so poor compared to people in the League with their businesses and bourse and having to break four throne pieces! Amongst my peers I’m certainly a poor; hence why it doesn’t seem “fantastical” to me, I suspect.

I’m fairly certain the chaps selling those 5ring cheese toasties could buy a few sets of magic items, oh my!

#19

What are you suggesting the alternative being Ferrero?

More than 3 bonded items/character?

Or 3 items, but greater flexability?
(Perhaps as simple as “you can have 3 items bonded to you at once, but cannot gain the same type of benefit from the same slot” - e.g if you had a triumphant blade and trollslayer’s crescent both bonded to you, then you only gain the +2 hero points, not +3)

Personally I’m happy with how Magic Items work already myself.
Magic items in Empire are frankly kinda pathetic compared to their counterparts many other (local and fest) systems I’ve played in but a very big theme in Empire is that Individual power is limited and it’s a theme I’m very happy to subscribe to.

#20

More flexibility undermines the design goal: Last thing I want is to be able to bond to an Assassin’s Blade and Bravo’s Blade at the same time, use one then swap to the other.

I don’t have a succinct solution; suggesting that Quests allow you to re-bond to a combat related accoutrement even if you had bonded to the Key that day adds a extra level of complication (which admittedly is less an issue now Refs have Nooks, and that there will always be Refs on hand as a Quest musters at the gate)

I suppose I do support non-slotted magic items that specifically don’t interact with the combat field. Much like how Boons don’t count as a bonded item despite being given to specific characters (an Autumn party invitation that casts Gatekeeper, for example)