profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/List_of_Criminal_Offences States;
Using magic on another person is never in and of itself a crime. However if the effect of the magic meets the definition of a crime then the fact that this effect was achieved by magic is no defence.
Now there are far more crimes than murder and robbery that a curse could be used for.
I’m not actually sure which I prefer as both protecting the guilty and magical bullying could make for interesting times.
The only one of the list of crimes I can see (other than murder or manslaughter) that a curse could count as is poisoning - there’s a year-long Venom curse. Curses of poverty (the vast majority of Curse effects) are explicitly mentioned as not meeting the definitions of any crimes.
So I’m sitting in a middle ground between the two - in theory any crime could be achieved by magical curses, but the vast majority of simple curse applications aren’t crimes and are therefore punishable only by the Conclave.
Note in particular that Assault is “unlawfully striking a citizen” - so a curse is basically never going to be assault, unless it has a weird delivery method.
I think the point is that a curse that does not rob or kill someone is not a crime; other magic may or may not be a crime based on what it does - hitting someone with a magical enchantment-granted CLEAVE is the same as a CLEAVE.
And a curse that makes someone lose their money apparently isn’t robbery, presumably because you’re not taking it from them, you’re just making them lose it.
You can’t steal money they never owned. Cursing them so that tiny bugs infest them and eat all their crops is rude, but they can’t sue for loss of earning from crops they never grew.
That would be a matter for wizards, and it’s really up to you to convince us that you didn’t deserve all those bugs.
Me, I’d call a man a sorcerer for forcing all those poor bugs to spend time with you…
Interesting examples:
Casting ‘gnawing endless hunger’ on a patient undergoing treatment [Malsanguino]
Casting the ‘Curse of decrepitude’ on a battlefield runner during a battle. [Subverting agencies of the state]
Casting the ‘Curse of gangrenous flesh’ [poisoning - as mentioned above]
Those are simply the first 3 curses I found while looking at the Wiki, and some contrived situations.
Most of the curses [the ones that damage income] while not theft would be criminal damage; that is, damage to the resource rather than to what it might or might not produce.
Having made the point that you can break the word of the law with curses. Andy suggests that it is intended for curses to be outside the law except when used for murder or if someone invents one that actually steals.
Which sounds like fun.
Problem is that the specific comment about murder and theft is on the Wiki but not in the law document. It’s not IC.
The resource curses don’t damage the resource. They reduce its production for a year, but cause no permanent harm.
EDIT: And while you’ve demonstrated specific cases where some of the curses could be illegal, you can always cast Gnawing Endless Hunger on someone at a time when they aren’t injured, or Curse of Decrepitude on someone who isn’t a runner.
If we could prove that the curse led to the death of an individual we’d go after someone for it. But there are a lot of reasons people die, we probably wouldn’t assume a curse was involved unless a witness came forward, or the doctor was like “I suspect foul play, none of my remedies worked!”
I think the legal ramifications of magic are things that need to be sorted in game, either with clarifications from the Conclave, or entirely new laws. We’ve done alright so far - the Penitents of Vashti proved that although slow to rouse, the machineries of the state can provide a workaround in one event (That was great game, by the way, if you guys are on here).
[quote=“Arkat”]Interesting examples:
Casting ‘gnawing endless hunger’ on a patient undergoing treatment [Malsanguino]
Casting the ‘Curse of decrepitude’ on a battlefield runner during a battle. [Subverting agencies of the state]
Casting the ‘Curse of gangrenous flesh’ [poisoning - as mentioned above]
[/quote]
My interpretation has been that if a curse combines with the immediate situation someone is in when the curse is delivered in such a way as to sabotage the empires forces during a battle (Treason) or kill someone (murder) then the crime applies, but if someone is cursed with venom or weakness, doesn’t take precautions, goes into combat and dies that’s on them.
Presumably if you used curse of gangrenous flesh on someone and then someone else assassinated them the magistrates could decide you were part of a conspiracy to kill them.
The legal position of curses as I understand it is distinctly counterintuitive if one is working from modern legal codes, or even working from the general feel of the Empire legal system. Of course, this may mean that I am wrong.
My posting was partly interest in the discussion, partly a poke to get the Wiki tightened up.
My view now, and how I’ll treat them in play is. If they are used to punish someone, it’s the Conclaves problem. If they are used to deliberately commit a crime I’ll take to a Magistrate.
My understanding is the Venom curse does not count as poisoning as you did not feed them a negative alchemical. It may count as murder if they are later killed by someone connected to you, but as is it is legal and they should consider their new position carefully
Thanks for this Arkat. The curses page has now been updated to align more closely with the position as stated on the criminal offences page.
i.e. Using magic on another person is never in and of itself a crime. However if the effect of the magic meets the definition of a crime then the fact that this effect was achieved by magic is no defence. For example, a curse of poverty doesn’t meet the definition of any criminal offence but a death curse most certainly does. Any curse that does not meet the definition of a crime falls under the purview of the Imperial Conclave. It is up to the Conclave to decide if a magician has overstepped the bounds and used magic in a way that threatens the Empire. If they decide this is the case, then those involved can be declared sorcerers.
Using magic to poison someone could fall under the definition of poisoning which is " Introducing or applying a poisonous substance or effect to a citizen which causes them harm." Note that it says “poisonous substance or effect” so the definition is not restricted to alchemical substances only.
[quote=“Ataraxia”]Actually if you read his post, that question is already answered:
“Substance OR EFFECT”.[/quote]
Hence my shocked question as I thought those curses would be labelled as illegal on the wiki like the illegal artifice to stop new player confusion.
Also I’m less likely to ask in play either of those questions as they’re not yet within my character’s reach. But yes, it is something I could email in.
[quote=“Ataraxia”]Actually if you read his post, that question is already answered:
“Substance OR EFFECT”.[/quote]
Hence my shocked question as I thought those curses would be labelled as illegal on the wiki like the illegal artifice to stop new player confusion.
Also I’m less likely to ask in play either of those questions as they’re not yet within my character’s reach. But yes, it is something I could email in.[/quote]
I think that anyone throwing a magnitude 50 curse of ‘I dare you to so much as cut yourself shaving’ would be justified in the impression that doing this to an Imperial citizen might be frowned upon by the law.
Then again, given the extreme rarity of magnitude 50 curses I wouldn’t fault the refs for saying ‘you’ve never heard of anybody who tried this, the law is right there, direct your questions in play to a magistrate and/or the holder of a certain decorative stick’.
Mark - Thanks for taking the time to put in the link I didn’t.
Iulian - The law forms part of the game setting and it is not intended to be FOIP so I am happy to offer my personal interpretations of it, where I think that would aid in general understanding. Of course it is only when we see how the law is actually applied in specific circumstances that any of us really know how it works in practice (for which we do indeed need a field). Magistrates are also happy to provide confidential legal advice during events.
Taxellor - My apologies if I am misunderstanding your original point or unnecessarily splitting hairs, but I was not trying to suggest that the spells venom and weakness are illegal. They aren’t illegal to know, or even to use, if done so in accordance with the law (such as against barbarians). It is not even illegal to know interdicted rituals, although producing the magical effect that the interdicted ritual creates IS illegal.
My interpretation of the relevant law is that the venom and weakness spells could be used to commit the crime of poisoning. To the best of my recollection we have had no actual cases of this in the field.
As an aside, bear in mind that possession (or even attempted possession, such as an attempt to purchase) of The Assassin’s Gate and The Winter Moon alchemicals is not only illegal but will almost certainly be tried as attempted murder due to their solitary purpose and time critical nature. As far as I’m aware everyone who has been found guilty of this has received a death sentence. I believe there is no magical equivalent to these two deadly alchemicals in current Imperial Lore (but if there were, casting it on a citizen would also likely result in a murder or attempted murder charge).
I meant Curse of Decrepitude and whatever the Mag 50 Spring Venom one is.
I would argue whether the Curse of Decrepitude counts as replicating a poisonous effect, but that depends on what your definition of that is and that is quite frankly not my decision to make
