Details on false virtue of Vengence/Justice

[Fremanofkol]

So can anyone highlight what is in this false virtue and how it is expressly defined

At what point does an ambotion to punish criminals using the courage to cofront them become a war of hate and atrrition against them and skirt the line into revenge.

Was hoping to read up on the false virtue of revenge over this time so i was better educated on how to tow the line. however there doesnt seem to be anything on the wiki detailing vengence/Justice.

Is this something the milittia have had to deal with before?

Anyone help?

[rgammans]

The wiki is a bit scattered about the details of the False virtues, If I recall there are three with good descriptions and three without.

The malig spiritual arua’s is a good page to start from.

But your specific request sounds like a really good thing to have as a IC discussion with your friendly neighbourhood priest.

[tea]

Religious crimes are the purview of the Synod, which is populated by PCs. As a result of this, questions like “has this gone from reasonable Vigilance into illegal Vengeance” are pretty much wholly down to the opinions of the Synod, which might make a given decision based on all sorts of evidence.

The killer evidence is normally a false virtue dedication.

Discussing it with a trusted priest is probably a very good way to start.

[Kingreaper]

It’s worth noting that next event is going to be the Synod Symposium, wherein issues such as this get hammered at by priests from across The Empire.

So if you bring it up then you might actually end up with a moderately conclusive answer (for the next six months or so, until we all change our minds/die)

[Illithidbix]

The simple answer is, it isn’t clearly and expressly defined. And is (probably deliberately…) murky when mixed in with Vigilance.
An aura of vengeance is a lot easier to spot than someone who has slipped into vengeance.

They are however, not common knowledge in the Empire, where as auras of the Seven Virtues are.

It is briefly mentioned on Malign spiritual presences.

Auras of vengeance - occasionally called justice - are one of the malign spiritual presences that seem to crop up through all agencies in almost equal measure. The aura has been known to manifest in areas of sudden violence and, as such, is commonly associated with hauntings. Equally, there are False Gods and blasphemous cults that utilise auras of vengeance to steer souls down dark paths. These destructive auras were deemed unvirtuous by the Early Synod for fuelling cycles of violence and goading citizens into action, often in defiance of Imperial Law, which is both disloyal and unwise.

The “reasonably close” nation of Faraden noticeably follow a faith that is very similar to the Way but claim that Justice is a Virtue whilst Ambition, Vigilance and Wisdom are not.

In the Faraden, Highborn wayfarers and Freeborn sutannir found a people receptive to their teachings, and a religion not massively dissimilar to the Imperial Faith. However the Faraden refused to recognise as essential the virtues of wisdom, vigilance or ambition. More worryingly for the Highborn, they claimed that ‘justice’ was as important as the other virtues and insisted on including it alongside courage, loyalty, prosperity and pride. While they are spiritual kin to the people of the Empire, but the shared similarity of their beliefs just throws the differences into stark relief - there are priests on both sides who would like to see the matter of their religious differences settled once and for all.

Now justice (with a small “j” ) is (generally) not an alien or despised concept in the Empire. It is mentioned plenty of times on the section on Imperial Law.
It is however not currently considered a quality that aids passage through the Labyrinth within Imperial Doctrine.

There is also a habit of jumping on people who use the names of the false virtues, whether such action is in fact Vigilant or merely annoying and pedantic divides the Synod…

[Iulian]

Perhaps you could ask some of the Faraden delegates if they attend the Symposium next season. Justice isn’t widely proselytised in the Empire to the point that most people couldn’t tell you what the traditional teachings of Justice priests are - so it’s not on the wiki. Everything on the wiki is common knowledge in at least part of the Empire.

[Mark_Wilkin]

A fascinating line of inquiry would be to go and ask a League Priest about where the line between a “Reckoning” and the false virtue “Vengeance” is. I’m sure they would have a viewpoint .

profounddecisions.co.uk/empi … _Reckoning

[Iulian]

I’d also like to point out, with this and other so-called ‘false’ Virtues, given that it’s a feature of Empire that isn’t like other games -

The players are in charge.

The Synod is where the buck stops as far as religion is concerned, as far as the definition of Virtues and their practice is concerned. Judgements before the Synod are the primary source that Way-following NPCs - and more than 99% of the smallfolk of the Empire are going to stick like limpets to the Way - use to determine what the Way means and how to follow it.

The real answer to the question “What does Justice / Vengeance mean to the Empire?” is “It means what present and past player characters (and our history, which is what a bunch of fictional player characters did in the past) say it means”. Now, there might be some things out there to be discovered that you might want to take into account when you make your Judgements - but fundamentally, there isn’t a ‘shadow’ NPC Synod that’s going to make that decision for you.

Of course, Faraden - who have priests of Justice - they’re going to have a particular view of what Justice / Vengeance means. The Grendel might also know what Vengeance means. The Jotun may have an idea - they’ve been fighting Faraden a long time, they’ve been on the receiving end of a lot of Vengeance. And maybe Sumaah, who follow something that is very close to the Way as understood in the Empire, will have an idea, if only so they can burn people at the stake more accurately. Hell, the Lasambrian Orcs might have a pretty good conception of Justice too, given that they live next to Faraden.

But fundamentally, there’s no Big Setting Hammer we as Plot are going to swing to say “this is Justice, this is not”. A Justice devotee will only be able to evoke certain roleplaying effects using Anointing or Consecration or what have you, but that’s the centre of what Justice is, not the edge. Only the Synod has the power to draw that kind of a line. And that power isn’t in the hands of the NPCs, it’s in the hands of players.

(In passing I want to note that ‘you can change things and wield influence’ isn’t the same as ‘you can change things and wield influence without consequences’. Adding or changing a Virtue would be likely to have a seismic effect on the Empire.)