So I have become over the last year far too interested in the Way of Virtue as a method of foreign influence and assimilation. Guess it comes from playing a Highborn Cardinal
Anyway, I was wondering if people could comment on an idea I have - that of preaching / missionary networks. In much the same way spy networks work in foreign territories I could envisage a missionary network set up with a resource cost via the Senate that priests could devote their congregational liao to further the Way of Virtue in foreign lands, with all the consequences thereof (read the history of the Sumaah Republic to understand how far such efforts can go). It wonât provide military intelligence but could help in other diplomatic and theological ways.
Weâre looking into this at the moment. The main discussion weâre having is whether it should be another DT thing or an uptime thing, and how to model the other religions in the game fucking with the Empireâs NPC populace.
Oh wow - didnât you were already on the case, so to speak. Can I put my 2p in and vote for a DT thing?
I love the idea that any priest can go off and preach in foreign lands, causing potential diplomatic mayhem and opportunity - in much the same way ship owners and military unit commanders can decide to raid when perhaps they shouldnât. Maybe I suffer from a lack of imagination but the only uptime options I can think of are yet more imperial positions and their quasi monopoly on specific aspects of the game. That is usually great because it creates competition over such positions but missionary work should be available to any priest simply as a matter of conscience - to my mind at least.
A DT option would still have the uptime game of trying to corral your fellow priests into supporting your particular focus of missionary work (e.g. âthe Faraden are the closest to us in Virtue!â âNo the Asaveans are the most corrupt!â etc.).
One element that I am keen to look at is that spreading the faith in foreign land should not neccessarily need any Senate approval at all.
For example, if a pilgrim sends a letter to a Synod member asking for donations toward building a church, or liao, or indeed anything else that exists in the game, then the Senate does not need to give approval for anything to happen for that priest to have an impact on the game.
Indeed, there is a part of me that strongly suspects that we should intentionally put these kind of opportunities in front of priests. The senate sees Asavea as a land of political and economic opportunity ⌠but the Synod knows they are a bunch of idolatrous heathens who are actively trying to stamp out the Way from their slave populace. Giving the Synod some levers to pull is one of the things we are keen to do.
But obviously we are cautious about it being a DT option because DT is cold and mathetmatical wheras uptime is ⌠well itâs basically where the game happens.
hisssssestwitch I have a stress reaction to the idea of freetext downtime style stuff like this appearing in Empire. So Iâd really prefer the options where we can handle it all in uptime.
Remember friends donât let friends do freetext downtimes. Freetext, not even once!
The way the Way is written, we need some way to at least attempt to spread its word to foreign nations, or the whole purpose of the Empire is not being pursued. It would be like saying the Empire expands militarily by conquering other lands, but not including any military game.
It doesnât matter if itâs impossible to convert all of Asavea to the Way in game - like we wonât conquer the whole world - but what use is having an evangelical religion if we canât evangelise?
I could see it being a campaign element on the same level as the military game, if PD were able to put that amount of effort into it. Make it exciting and compelling, a real war of ideologies.
[quote=âMark_Wilkinâ]hisssssestwitch I have a stress reaction to the idea of freetext downtime style stuff like this appearing in Empire. So Iâd really prefer the options where we can handle it all in uptime.
Remember friends donât let friends do freetext downtimes. Freetext, not even once![/quote]
I donât see why this would have to be freetext- just a drop down menu for priests with congregations that lets them either produce liao or say âsend congregation on Missionary work in nation [chosen from drop down list]â.
Then if a whole lot of priests consistently all go preach in, say Faraden, it can be reflected back with some uptime effects. That way the âweight of numbersâ mechanical bit is handled in DT, but the tasty arguments/opportunities walk on to the field at events.
Congregations feel like they need some love and this feels like love to me.
This might also be another opportunity for Sentinel Gate activations that arenât fighty quests. Clearly some Asavean FailConverts need the fail talking out of them. Then you could have Piteous Refugees or Vengeful Relatives, both of whom are always good for a laugh, turning up kind-of incognito at the same time as an official expedition.
Iâm up for more non-com quests. Not sure if the Gate as written will support teleporting out of the Empire, but the idea of using priest skills besides Exorcism to positive effect in places beyond Anvil sounds very cool.
Can you make a virtuous argument for convincing a remote family of Varushkans to give up an archaeologically significant artifact theyâve kept for generations? (Or just consecrate their back yard while your mate distracts them with sophistry so you can brainwash them into doing it anyway.)
A Feni chieftain has had a religious experience and demands to talk to a priest of [Virtue] about the possibility of relinquishing a valuable source of dragonbone into the Synodâs hands in exchange for a positive Testimony. Insight his soul and see if his claims are true.
Morale in a Sermersuaq outpost is critically low. Is the Cardinal of Courage a bad enough dude to lift their spirits with a St. Crispinâs Day-style speech? Or will you just blag it and Hallow the bejesus out of their battle standard?
I donât see why this would have to be freetext- just a drop down menu for priests with congregations that lets them either produce liao or say âsend congregation on Missionary work in nation [chosen from drop down list]â.[/quote]
This seems a decent solution, along the lines of which army oneâs Military Unit goes to support. You can invent and explain all the exciting things they got involved in, and thereâs no freetext to be seen (who am I kidding, thereâs always freetext in downtimes, you just have something legitimate to game about on the field this way).
Congregations being 'Get liao/sell liao cheaply/get synod (+Highborn political) votes" doesnât feel quite as engaging as some of the other personal resources.
The ability to put effort into missionary work - be that explained away as going on pilgrimage, charity foot-the-ball fundraising or knitting socks for the poor children of wherever - and have that effect the behind the scenes who hates us/likes us game in some small way makes sense to me. Doubly so for me, as my IC justification for being away for three events of the year working in Dubai is that Jacob is off preaching in Jarm. Being able to have something in-game for that would be lovely.
The other option, of course, is to go all Crusadery and allow an option for Congregations to apply swords (or perhaps pitchforks) to faces.
[quote=âMark_Wilkinâ]hisssssestwitch I have a stress reaction to the idea of freetext downtime style stuff like this appearing in Empire. So Iâd really prefer the options where we can handle it all in uptime.
Remember friends donât let friends do freetext downtimes. Freetext, not even once![/quote]
Donât worry itâs not going to be freetext while there is breath in my body (or a vengeful spirit in my chakras). One of my arguments against it as a DT action is that I think it would end up looking like fleets - and indeed I argued that if we did make it a DT option it would have to be a fleet option because churches, as we all know, do not float.
One of my concerns remains the mechanical nature of clicking DT to get converts. It feels hollow to me, and it feels like it diminishes the entire concept of faith at Empire. It makes religion into a commodity, rather than anything ârealâ to peoplesâ lives. Wheras I think that the Axou and the Sarcophan and the rest are just as sincere and connected to their faith as Imperial citizens are. Should that be reflected in an option that does nothing at all - that is, you click âproselytiseâ and we review where the Empire is proselytising for plot purposes and nowt else?
Iâd still prefer this kind of thing to be done at the event rather than as a box ticking exercise in DT. I mean I know there are foreigners on the field that can be preached at, while theyâre preaching at us in return. And Iâm involved in religious plot (along with Henry) that involves us doing work to try and convert foreigners to the way using the tools we already have at our disposal. We just need more opportunities to do this sort of thing so that foreigners arenât fought over by priests as to who gets the chance to talk to them.
So basically I think we need to persuade more larpers from Europe to come on holiday and play foreigners at Empire, so we can try and convert them IC .
I echo the fact that the lack of options in Congregations is a something to be sad about.
The ability to proselytise in another country (or even to barbarian slaves) would be really cool, essentially a big lever for plot. I would say something like this should give reduced liao rather than no liao, as no liao removes the ability to perform skills full stop.
The way I see it though such preaching/sermon abilities in the Empire and abroad is a two way deal as well. The plot team to establish a set of outcomes to preaching for each nation (and give limited information to Cardinals etc. on outcomes) for preaching in particular places, some will do nowt. For example preaching in Asavea would piss off the traders but increase standing with the Sumah (Wayist Zealots who are at war with the filthy idolatatrous Asaveans), Preaching in Jarm would do very little other than a conversation piece between Ambassadors, same with commonwealth, but preaching in the Iron Federacy will reduce their economic output as thier serfs throw strops but could lead to war between the Empire and them, Preaching in Barbarian land (Thule, Druj or Jotun) could lead to a slave revolt (if there is enough preaching) and affect the military game one way or another (positively or negatively, whoâs to say the Jotun wouldnât consider that a breach of the treaty or the Thule or Druj attack the Empire more for more slave raids). Of course, it could be further complicated by who is preaching, a courage or prosperity priest might garner different results. Those are cool levers that could be pulled by players and presented by plot to enliven the Synod game, where currently, to the wider game the Synod sits in the corner and wags its finger at the populace every so often, which is not how I see playing priest, I see it more taking the finger and hand and fist and punching someone elses happy little pie and rubbing religious ferver (and pie) in their face while screaming the tenants of the way as they cry about the ruined naughty (or greater good, who said the way has to be positive to the Empire?) plans they had.
You could argue that attaching a military unit to a campaign army is just as âdullâ. But it makes a rare kind of game in uptime - the ability to say âI did something that helped this the army this seasonâ. That is precious and drives game forwards for people.
Downtime is the chance to set the stage for uptime. All that really matters is that players are able to state that they are doing a thing and for this to be recognised and acknowledged by PD in some way. Like I said, nobody is expecting to convert an entire foreign nation overnight, or even in the scope of the campaign, but the ability to mechanically support Doing Stuff should not be underestimated.
And the issue of foreign nations being set in their ways is not that relevant. Why do the two options have to be âitâs trivial to convert peopleâ and âitâs impossibleâ? Surely there is plot and game in the stories that can arise from missionaries doing work that is difficult and slow, perhaps creating small cults of the Way who can send word back about their situation and what they need help with? (Or in some cases, perhaps sending help along - imagine mapping an Axou territory by using Way followers as advance spies, French Resistance style!).
If it needs to be decided in uptime, so be it, but I think this is an important part of the game as it has been presented. We have historical precedent for spreading news of the Way after all, and the resources of an Empire to do it with! Otherwise literally only violence is the solution, and that seems both counter intuitive and a bit dull when it comes to roleplaying.
I thought that some of our foreign neighbours (the one we could walk too) were also in need of illumination on the path of the way (and being that bit smaller might be more rewarding targets for missionary expeditions.)
Also a church doesnât actually need to float across the water to be used in such away, a priest who canât run a conventional congregation because he spends most of his time travelling to the commonwealth and preaching there, or a extremely evangelical highguard chapter who focus on training up missionaries to go to foreign part. Iâd even argue that a captain that has specialised in smuggling in religious texts and missionaries, should be a congregation rather than a fleet -with 2 crowns being the cost of finding actual trade goods and someone who knows about trade :p.(The logical comparison would be the suggested mammoth hunters in winter mark, which probably bear far more similarity to a military unit than any marcher farm, but are farms because they participate in the economic rather than military manner.)
It seems to me like the provision of missionaries who are knowledgeable in the imperial faith and willing to risk the unknown foreign countries are the more limited and interesting bit than whether they can get passage on a ship. I assume that our trading fleets are carrying more than the small pouch of resources they actually produce mechanically. There probably is sufficient space for passenger (or crew.) (although improved conversion of distant foreigners could make an interesting lateral option for both fleets and congregations.)
Due to the scope of IC RP at empire, ignoring a particularly ambitious player event it feels like it would be hollow to me without an infrastructure and DT option involved. Considering to my knowledge the most foreign place anyone has ever been IC is the Barrens (or Karsharn if we count player events.) The only foreigners we are likely to encounter are official delegations and probably the worst group to target your evangelism at (and getting a delegation of foreigners who are particularly receptive to hearing more about the way sounds like an IC achievement in itself.)
Now even if it is a numerical system, I know the military system is at itâs heart a game of numbers, but because I have little connection to the Military Council and really, really, enjoy reading the winds of war. It doesnât feel that way to me. A numerical underlying system with solely narrative and plot outputs feels like it ensures player action means something while keeping it from feeling like so much like a numbers game. (After all, we are doing this in someone else country we probably donât have a handle on the numbers coming out.)
Not to mention, that Iâm pretty sure to get results out of the box ticking in DT would require uptime roleplay, without involving PDâs manpower. As well as when the DT action finally did turn into uptime results increasing the chance of it going to the characters who have put in the IC effort rather than being poached by priests who are good at NPC spotting.
I donât have an MU but the choices they present have lead to more interesting field RP than the groups other resources. For a while, we completely refused to send MU to X territory for background reasons till something huge happened which changed the RP, now the 100-500 troops the house had probably made very little difference. Still uptime rp felt validated because of the Downtime box ticking.
Churches funding and supplying foreign missions is a long and storied, if somewhat murky, real-world tradition, and real-world churches likewise arenât known for floating particularly well. Or as my sister-in-law put it, a church is the people, not the building.
If itâs a DT option, youâre not so much doing a Maelstromesque âpush button, receive convertâ system as you are contributing to the story that you want to see (if indeed you want to see it), and you can always get physical goods instead. I donât think there needs to be more than a short report of the effectiveness of the Imperial mission in the territory, possibly a current summary of how well the Way is doing in that particular nation, handed out to people who choose this result rather than a tiny amount of cash or another bucket of liao. If you really feel you must provide material reward for this, although nobody in the history of the game ever chose a congregation expecting to get rich off it, then you can always provide a few liaoâs worth of random donations (so, like, a crown or two, or a measure of one of the artisan resources, or a couple of herbs).
Then if the Empire wishes priests to be further rewarded for pointing their congregation at the Heathen, the Empire can establish an equivalent of the Imperial Guerdon for missionary work. Or I hear the Virtue Fund is ballooning, and itâs a relatively simple matter to disburse from itâŚ
Free text DT is indeed bad and cold mathematics donât make uptime game. However having the cold mathematics does allow for player action to have consequence. Mixing the two so that everybody can participate via a DT option but also via specific uptime events, if they spot them, is maybe the best option?
Plus creating a DT layer allows for uptime action to be factored in as bonuses / negatives - in much the same way military engagements at Anvil can affect DT campaign outcomes.
I could see missionary work being a Liao sink, after all the Wayâs philosophy is proved by the ability to manipulate auras (to an extent). Referring above to the âgroup of NPCs converted at a player eventâ it was more the case, from my perspective, that a group of people with no actual faith asked for evidence when people claimed the Way was real and gave them powers, and the Liao allowed players to demonstrate those powers (and thus prove part of the faith - Iâm not convinced that the NPCs in question were âutterly convertedâ but they at least had evidence of a different worldview).
Incidentally, if I recall correctly, itâs already stated that there are Asavean satrapies where slaves in particular have been converted to the Way, much to the annoyance of their masters. I could see missionary work involving far-foreign nations dealing mostly with proxies (Cold War style), avoiding any thought at all that PCs are âmeant toâ be able to convert a whole foreign empire to the Way. After all, itâs pretty explicit that we cannot in any way directly engage with any of the far-foreigners in the military gameâŚ
Iâm not convinced that this needs to be made overly complicated.
I understand that itâs possible to choose a number of doses of liao to sell in downtime. Could this downtime mechanism be extended to commit a set number of liao doses to foreign evangelism? This could be representative of the portion of a congregationâs projected power committed elsewhere.
If you then kept a record of liao committed season to season per foreign theatre, as certain tipping points were reached, it could have an obvious effect. The news that there is a slave revolt going on in Thule lands might reach the empire, and they might find one of the Thule armies pre-occupied with putting down the slaves. There could then be reaction on the field itself. A set of fugitive slaves arrive seeking sanctuary, but who knows what they have with them? How would the Thule themselves react?
The opportunity for the synod to interact with the military council is deepened. Congregations become a more exciting resource. Assuming that you donât get into writing missionary reports every season in the same way as you do the military ones then the work should be as simple as adding some numbers to a central spreadsheet and writing some gub come tipping point times. Iâd be inclined to add some seasonal decay to the numbers per nation but complication beyond that isnât needed.
Whilst this is primarily a DT thing, it adds to the amount of talk on the field, which is a good thing.
As to lack of options ⌠it is worth noting that there are no options in herb gardens, mana sites, businesses, farms, mines or forests beyond some limited ability to effect their production.
There are nine resources of which three allow you to âdo something in downtimeâ ⌠and congregation is one of them (trade liao for cash).
I am not exactly wracking my brains for ways to give more options to congregations, I have to admit.
You know ⌠that idea is not a dreadful one. Weâre hopefully doing a quick modification to some religion stuff post E1 I might speak to the boss about this idea.
