Navarr, Magic and Trade

I’ve pretty much built my Navarr broker/commerce mage. With Heal spell, Autumn and Night rituals which will give me plenty to do in game with my mana crystals. I did just read the Navarr magic traditions and trying to resolve where Dylan fits in.

To paraphrase the wiki the Navarr believe that magic is not to be used for selfish ends and that for the most part only the Vates are trusted with magic which they give for free.

My character Dylan is all about getting people what they need but also promoting fair trade. He follows the ideals of Ephisis to keep promises, pay debts and give a fair price for goods and services. This is something he also attempts to promote in others (Lann - Loyalty).

His inspiration is the great dance. As peoples lives weave, combine and seperate so too do their creations, acts and favours. Dylan is not interested in getting rich but will advise that people need to pay for his rituals because an unpaid debt throws the world out of balance. In turn he will use the funds he gains to help or acquire resources those in need (correcting other broken parts of the dance).

Would the Navarr understand this and be okay with a non-Vate magician?

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The short answer is I think you’ll find that some Navarri will be but others won’t. No nation is one homogenous mass in their opinions and they’re not intended to be. Otherwise we wouldn’t have three different visions for the future of Seren being campaigned for.

From an IC perspective, my character would be highly suspicious if he heard Dylan saying all the above at Anvil.
But OOC you aren’t breaking the brief to my mind, just playing a minority case within it. So I can’t see players having a problem.

There is one bit I feel deserves highlighting though:

This sort of phrasing is probably going to draw accusations of idolatry and heresy (perhaps Sorcery too, depending on how you use the Scales) your way, as the Eternals are entirely separate to the religion of the Way; beings to deal with but not to be admired or emulated by orthodox doctrine as I understand it.
I’m not saying don’t run with this, as OOC it could bring lots of roleplay for you, there’s just a good chance of IC opposition/antagonism. People can and do play briar characters in Navarr despite the negative IC perception (and presumably enjoy it), the wiki just gives them fair warning of the consequences so I felt it only fair to do the same here.
Saying that you share the ideals of Ephisis might be more acceptable. But I don’t know enough of the magic and faith spheres to say that for certain, nor how much better.


Well the brief does say that not all Navarr mages are Vates but, and it’s a big but, what the Navarr magical traditions page says on the subject is this:

“As a result of this approach, magic is seen as the legacy of the nation as a whole, rather than any individual Striding or Steading. Those who devote themselves to the study of magic are expected to acknowledge the gift they have been given and to seek out ways to employ their magic in the service of the Navarr. Not all choose to do this of course; there are selfish individuals in the Navarr as in any nation, but those that do are called Vates.”

Another relevant part of that page is:

“Vates are the only Navarr who are trusted to meet with the eternals or their heralds. There is a belief that the oaths of the Vate help them resist the influence of the other Realms, and that they will use their influence with the eternals only in support of the nation and the Empire. Other magicians - including those of other nations - who have regular contact with the eternals are often viewed with a little suspicion, especially if they are not prepared to talk about their experiences.”

So you’re going to be swimming upstream with that concept and I would expect conflict with at least some of the characters in the nation. I’d drop an email to the background team at and see what advice they can give you.

And likewise the whole “follows the ideals of Ephisis” concept, you’re going get some side eye at the very least if you describe it like that. Have a read of the Prosperity page on the wiki as phrasing those ideas via that part of the Imperial faith, and the other virtues, will be much more palatable for some characters.

Good luck :slight_smile:


Lineage is a great way to lean against (but not outright break) the brief a little bit. While it may be a little unusual to do the above (unusual, but not wrong. You do you) people will be a lot more understanding if your a Cambion doing Autumn things, or even another lineage (Naga getting shineys, Drauger trying to get more things for “their” people, ect.) Bonus point in that you get a small mechanical advantage/Boon and Eternals of that realm are better disposed toward you.
The down side is that you will have to phys rep the lineage, but the thing with lineage is that there is a lot of Leeway with how much you put in. The bare minimum would be a bit of metallic paint on your face, but if you want to aspire to more that’s fantastic! I would advise this however: You paid to be here and have fun, so if something is to uncomfortable you don’t have to do it.

Have you had a look at the Virtues yet? Its the in game State religion of various ideals and paths everyone should aspire for. Prosperity sounds like what your going for, as part of it was designed to prevent people going “The Empire is in trouble! You have something, give it. Now.” by empowering you to reply “I earned this, its mine. Pay me or get lost”. So if you worked hard to learn magic, it would be unProsperous for someone to demand you provide your skills without fair compensation. Your Great Dance reasoning is a very cool and Navari way of looking at it.


Thanks for the feedback all. Dylan’s whole brief is to be selfless with magic (but not beggering himself or being exploited). Falling into a sorcery accusation and having half of my character sheet nerfed doesnt sound fun so I’ll repackage him as a Vate. I may need to rethink some of my ritual choices to be a good Navarr serving person rather than an ambassador trying to keep trade fair and flowing in the empire.

Remember that for a sorcery case to pass, the whole of Conclave votes on it so I doubt they’d just go along with some Navarr thinking you’re not following Navarr traditions hard enough. I honestly wouldn’t worry, as you actively have to work very hard to piss of the whole of Conclave enough to have a declaration of sorcery passed against you.

Likewise if you’re worried about judgements against you in the Navarr assembly, if you’ve got solid reasoning based on the Way for what you’re doing, I think they’ll find it difficult to condem you on that grounds.

But saying that, you will find it difficult to cooperate with other Navarr mages and be more than a lone mage.

Let me see if I can find some active Navarr players to weigh in on this one and give you a steer.


Thanks again. I think I have the balance right now. Instead of “follows the ideals of” I have:

“Dylan trusts the Autumnal eternals Ephisis and Estavus more than the others being that, with caution, the acts of oath keeping, fair trade and craftsmanship do not deviate from the Way. He is proficient in Night rituals that allow him future visions and the ability to seal containers but is far more suspecting of the Night eternal Sadogua”.

I’ll stay as a Broker and I’m confident that I can prove to the Vates my duty to the Navarr. If anything it’ll be fun having my Stridings Vate Paulk lecture me from time to time.

On a specific note I suspect how much you are focusing on Eternals would draw suspicion as a Broker mage, from Vates. This isn’t just the Idolatry issue, Navarr doesn’t trust non-vates dealing with eternals. Which is great if causing interpersonal conflict is your primary objective. However, if fundamentally what you want is to play the trade game with magic, you might not want to lean into something that would make others suspect you.

To be a real nerd, your character is beginning to sound very much like a Goetic Mage, which is a cool magical tradition, but not one I would play as a non-Vate in Navarr.

By contrast if you want to reduce the conflict and come across less dodgy, I would avoid using eternals when talking about magic as much as possible. I’d look into one of the other Magical Traditions and try to phrase you philosophy in terms of constellations or Runes. (I would give you bonus points if you manage to do this with blood magic but that’s quite hard.)
– As a good broker-mage you probably should avoid the eternals and heralds as much as possible, whereas my actual advice would be save it for the fun stuff that you actually need eternals/heralds for.

The section in question from the Navarr Magical Traditions Page:
“Vates are the only Navarr who are trusted to meet with the eternals or their heralds. There is a belief that the oaths of the Vate help them resist the influence of the other Realms, and that they will use their influence with the eternals only in support of the nation and the Empire.”

You could also hire a Vate as your morality bodyguard/interpreter :slight_smile: .

Sounds fine. I only focused on the Eternals because they sounded like a cool bit of lore to bounce off. I’ll ignore the Eternals and focus on runes. I’m turning some slate into runestones anyway. I was looking forward to using Scales of Ephisis but I’ll axe that for Chamber of Pallas

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Eternals are indeed cool. But they are specifically a ‘dangerous’ part of the world and focusing on them might get you into trouble that will affect your game when, as a starting character, you just want to get a handle on the base game.

Yeah I’m close to abandoning the whole character idea and just rolling up something more simple.

Let’s try another angle, what bits of the game did you want to get into with this character?

Also are you wedded to Navarr, because this character would fit in a bunch of other nations very handily?

I’ve been discussing it with the other Vate in my group (we are all coming in as a Navarr striding) and I’m going to re-skin the character as a Vate. I’ll change some of the rituals to dry dealing with Eternals rather than showing respect or deference to them.

I started off as magician/artisan but fell in love with the RP potential in rituals.

My ritual scripts originally talked about the importance of keeping promises and paying dues (Ephisis) and of hard work and building the empire stronger year on year (Estavus) but I can re-write it all to be about the Great Dance instead while talking about those virtues (loyalty and prosperity) without mentioning the Eternals.


Good luck with the character, please do start a new thread if you’ve got other questions.

You still have plenty of interesting roleplay potential with eternals, Vate oaths didn’t stop all manner of interesting stuff being negotiated with Arhallogen. Nothing is ever dry when it comes to Eternals.

Have a read of these Winds of Fortune for a bit of background, searching for Navarr and Arhallogen on the wiki should show you the rest:

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Originally I was going to be protected by an anointment of Loyalty (given to me by my OOC and IC partner who is a priestess of loyalty) but the Vate oath on top of that means I’ll be ready to deal with the Eternals and keep most of the rituals I wanted to play with.