Where is the least inTRAnational PvP

New Players
1

I acknowledge that that’s an awful thread title. But if I explain what I mean by it you might be able to either point me in the right direction or show me where I’m going wrong in my thinking.

I understand that Empire is a game which has both PvE (player vs. enemy/environment) and PvP elements. PvE elements include barbarian and foreign powers, Eternals and their Heralds, the Vallorn and multiple smaller threats such as Wolves and Feni raiders. I like a clear external enemy, I make no secrets or apologies for that, but I will come back to it.

PvP elements means competing against other players. That is to say other Imperial Citizens. This isn’t really a game about brutally killing other Imperial Citizens to get ahead! But, it is about outmaneuvering in the Senate and Conclave, using the Synod to enhance your reputation and damage your opponents, using the Bourse to enrich yourself.

This is great. Where I was having more trouble envisioning the game is which other players to be competing against - other members of my nation or the other nations. In my head, I had the image of each nation being very coherent, all pulling in the same direction. Less about getting your candidate to Senator/General over the other Earl, more about putting Dawn interests ahead of Navarr (say). Less competition and more collaboration with members of your own nation. That’s what I meant by intranational pvp - as opposed to international pvp.

Am I being hopelessly naive or are there nations which do the ‘one nation’ thing more than others, as a function of design? As I say, I like clear external enemies, which is easier with a strongly defined ‘us’ to range against ‘them’! I was tempted to phrase this as individualist/collectivist and point to more independent-minded nations, but I’m not sure if that’s the right way of looking at it.

2

I can’t speak for other nations, I’m not massively up to date on their own internal politics, but in the Brass Coast we don’t compete much on political matters. Everything is for sale, so there’s no need to scheme and plot; if you want to be a senator you buy the position. If you want to be a general, either impress the senators or pay them. If you want to be on the Bourse, pay for it (like everyone else does). If you want a ministry, buy other people’s votes.

You don’t need to bother with complicated backhanders and “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours”, you just make up a contract, pay some coin, and the deal is done.

Personally I like the simplicity of the system. It favours the rich, but it does so openly and honestly :slight_smile:.

This doesn’t exactly mean we co-operate, families look out for themselves first, but it does mean that we rarely squabble about politics.

3

I don’t think you’ll get a definitive answer - unless there is someone out there who has managed to work their way through all 10 nations in 6 events :wink:

Going by the brief, the Imperial Orcs should be the most cohesive faction (it probably helps that they’re the smallest :wink: )

Brass Coast may also be worth a look - yes, we compete with each other, but all the competition is out in the open and above board. You KNOW your competitors are going to try and “bribe” their way into the position, but since it’s all done on the basis of highest bidder anyway, that’t irrelevant…

4

I think the game design allows for and encourages intranational PvP over various game “assets” (mostly Imperial positions) in all the Nations. I find Highguard (the only one I’ve any experience in) to be largely very united, but there will always be conflict (albeit low level) around the election of Senators; it’s not that homogenous that everyone voting will agree on the best candidate. Whether you’re competing against players of your nation or of other nations will depend upon which field of competition you enter, and which Faction. Highguard’s “Schtick” at the moment appears to be collecting Cardinals (we’ve got three! Gotta get them all!), for example, and there has actually been a coup in the Courage Assembly where the (HG) Cardinal got revoked and replaced by another Highborn… but the nationalities there were entirely incidental, as far as I can tell, and it was about the issues. If you’re in the League, and want to get into the Bourse (or Cardinal of Prosperity), you’ll mostly be competing against other Leaguers. I don’t think any one Nation has got enough of a “lock” on the Conclave in general that you’d be competing more intranationally than internationally, but there will obviously be incumbents (probably from all Nations) and Nation-based interest blocs which you could come up against who are from your Nation whichever Nation you’re from.

I’d say “Don’t sweat about it.” Pick a thing to do (take your time if you want) and don’t worry too much about the Nationality of whoever gets in your way. If you’re the better candidate, it’s better for your Nation if you get the post/commission/fee, after all. I’m sure once you get into the game you’ll be able to see something wrong somewhere and set about making it right/better, and if you truly want to avoid stepping on your neighbours’ toes, you’ll be able to pick a field in which there’s little local competition, once you’re in uptime.

The other side of it is that people often need help, so you can, instead of looking for an international field of competition, seek out compatriots who need a hand with something.

5

Imperial Orcs are the most supportive amongst their nation.
Marches, while the houses compete re: Land, are exceptionally unified and Marches are Marches
Urizen, Varushka, Highguard are about the same; no directed conflicts, but plenty of groups wanting to make gains, just not being overtly pvp on it.
Wintermark have some interesting inter-socio arguements amongst each other
Dawn and Brass Coast have the friendliest of rivalries inside their own nations, but are the first with real conflicted politics, but are super entirely supportive of one another each.
Navaar successfully caused a massive split between themselves and are constantly bickering about each other with the Civil Service.
League have successfully killed one another, and are constantly shit sticking each other, and buying each other out and lying and all sorts. Super heavy pvp; though some are just friendly little buggers.

Roughly in order for PVP there, though I should advise I spent barely any time in The League or Urizen.

6

Ferrero is pretty much right about Urizen. We’ve had internecine strife, but nobody’s been left to die on the battlefield or had their Imperial position sabotaged or anything ghastly like that. Almost always better off someone who understands the meaning of civilisation than another bloody lowlander.

7

[quote]"I’m sure once you get into the game you’ll be able to see something wrong somewhere and set about making it right/better, and if you truly want to avoid stepping on your neighbours’ toes, you’ll be able to pick a field in which there’s little local competition, once you’re in uptime.

The other side of it is that people often need help, so you can, instead of looking for an international field of competition, seek out compatriots who need a hand with something."[/quote]

I think it’s more that I am having trouble seeing a way to get into the game, and what the nation would do to someone who turns up at Anvil without friends or allies and says “I’m here to help”!

For instance at E1 I found a group of members of my nation/virtue assembly who misled me about the Synod - assuring I missed key votes etc. At E2, I joined a group based on advert but they dispersed around the field after time-in and I found myself unable to break into any conversation with my nation - every conversation I started was met with hostility or stonewalling, even thrown out of my group tent!

All of which is totally acceptable behaviour from a rules perspective, and valid pvp roleplay, but it led me to have some extremely boring and frustrating events. So I’d like to be somewhere it’s easier to ‘tag along’ until I find my feet.

8

[quote=“HertsJ”]

I’d be tempted to say Dawn. The nation isn’t so big that you’ll get lost and something like a questing knight character has licence to get involved and talk to anyone and everyone if you so wish with the hook of looking for a test of mettle. Kit can be fairly straight forward as well - a nice flowing surcoat gets you off to a flying start on that.

9

At my first event, I realised very quickly that the nature of a Fest game is that you can’t sit there and expect Game to come to you, you have to go out and find Game. I joined a wonderful group of which I really love, but I’ve spent all my time wondering off and doing my own things to try and find myself Game. I essentially walked about without my friends, and went to make my own.

What I learnt was that it is great fun to do this, and in fact I changed what I did. From then on I went out of my way to bring Game to others. I would make new friends, then find ways to have something to do for them, or for them to do for me or for me to do to them. Durien, in my first poster, is a fine example if you have seen the poster from that event =D

I generally suggest never joining a group based on an advert; you don’t know anything about them unless you meet them on the field, and if they have to advertise for people it’s a worrying indicator, to my mind.

If you want people to stick about, I would recommend Imperial Orcs, Brass Coast, or Dawn. Fighting at the Glory Hole, or drinking in the bar, will mean you are always around people in Dawn. The Brass Coast are exceptionally friendly and there’s usually Things to Do. Imperial Orcs look out for you.

Equally Marches like Marches, the bar is a fairly safe spot.

If you were considering anything medical at all, the Hospital will always provide you Game.

Varushka prides itself on hospitality, you can use that as a method to walk up to people and chat and get some food and far too much alcohol and show some real interest and BAM, friend for life.

If you DO want to do the priest game, go find your Cardinal and ask to speak to him about the Virtues. They bloody love talking about themselves. In fact, many, many players will froth out the mouth the moment you ask anything about their background too.

Failing all of this, go join the Iron Raptors. Lots of silly people off to do low level quests for a little bit of money to get newer players “in” to the Game.

10

OK, so, let’s imagine someone of my nation turned up to me without resources or allies and said that they were here to help, basically setting off the ‘interested newbie’ flag.

  • To start with, I want to know if they’ve met the Egregore, and if not then I will try quite hard to make an introduction.
    Then we’re probably in for some walking:
  • First, they get added to the voting bloc of my biggest friend in their territory, for Senator-electing purposes. This will involve an introduction, this will involve small talk and conversation about our fields of study, some general roleplay.
    ** If they’re from MY territory, then the voting strength of their group is quickly and politely calculated and they are introduced to my senator post-haste. Nobody wants loose cannons in Urizeni elections - a couple is not a concern, but more than a couple most certainly is.
  • Second, when I know what it is that they do, they get an introduction to my biggest friend in the Nation who works in that field (unless I’ve got real ‘crazy person’ warning bells going off).
    ** This is also an opportunity to show off my own biases - a sentinel will get politely patronised, while a questor or seer will get treated with kid gloves for completely different reasons, an illuminate or stargazer will get attentive respect and a mage will be being assessed for their usefulness as an ally.
    ** If they are in my field, they’ll likely get a tour of the field and a briefing on all of our plot along with investigation into whether they are worth acquiring some Volhov’s Robes to bring them into my coven.
  • Third, if I’m still around, they get introduced to the relevant Archmage or Cardinal/Gatekeeper. (I don’t know every Cardinal well enough for a personal introduction yet.)
    ** I’m not still around if they’re a Sentinel.
  • Fourth, if they’re a magician and I can still find them, I drag them to Conclave.

This is political PvP, and I’d expect any other nation to be much the same, to be honest. I’m not trying to initiate hostilities - I’m trying to get you on my team, preferably in such a way as to impress my team as to my competence and probity. A new player isn’t important enough to be an opponent, and is far more use as a potential ally - what I want to do is introduce them to the game, show them where the pieces are kept and find out what sort of piece they themselves are. I don’t need to try and put myself above them, because I’ve been doing this since it started - OOC I’m far more interested in another player than in winning against someone without any cards in their hand, and IC I believe in the Net of the Heavens; the virtuous build the Net, they don’t tear it.

The other thing this does is introduce them to how I play the game, which is to walk. I travel the field scouring it for plot, and when I find some I weave it into as many people as I can. In the process I build up an idea of where I can go to get which skills, so that when the plot is urgent I can run in the right direction shouting the right thing.

11

I’m biased, but as mentioned before Imp Orcs- the design brief has “the Plan” as a nation we are united on this, it’s easy to stick to and to join the nation you need to stick to the “plan”. Not sure what or how we will grow once “plan” is achieved. i think only rivalry is which Orc becomes the next Emperor.

12

What Iulian said, considering I play the same game as he does :stuck_out_tongue:. An important thing if you’re just generally looking for something is to target groups who don’t look busy, be affable and arrange to come back later. A lot of the time I’ll be going round a camp looking for X, and I’ll get rebuffed a fair bit by busy people but just move along to the next tent or bystander until someone goes “Oh, yeah, there’s a Courage priest over there, I’ll get her” or whatever. It also really helps if you can get into the Conclave or tag along to a Virtue Assembly or something because then you can meet people who will have opinions and need help in spreading those opinions.

Having a Thing to do helps. if you’re a priest with Synod votes, you can go and poke your nose into every single political meeting in the game. Sitting there with a calculating expression, a big Labyrinth symbol and possibly a notebook should get you some attention. Then start telling people how they are dead Virtuous/Unvirtuous and offering assistance in bettering this or loud condemnation.

Political attacks are your last resort for when you haven’t got someone on your side or stopped them joining Those Guys. Ugh, Those Guys. Until you’ve actually done stuff, you’re not anyone’s opponent. Blocking you out of the game’s a stupid move because they might jump on your side. Someone deliberately misleading you is not only being stupid, but they are DISLOYAL, or UNVIGILANT if they have the times wrong and it’s a genuine mistake. Clearly it is up to you to locate some other priests to do something about this BACKSLIDER who is UNDERMINING YOUR VIRTUOUS WORK. Start with the Cardinal, going straight to the top is big and clever and their names are on the wiki, so general knowledge.

There’s also levels of conflict. The Marches is “Me against my brother, my brother and I against my cousins, my family against the neighbours, all of us against the FUCKING OWLBEARS.” So, recruiting farmers to vote for your guy, arguing over who gets the Bourse positions, who gets to go first in the farm buffs, what to do about the Jotun… But then YOU SAID WHAT ABOUT OUR SENATOR? and fifty loud buggers with pots and pans to bang turn up outside someone’s tent.

13

To the OP:

My own experience is only within Wintermark. In the main the people of the Mark tend to be fairly welcoming to each other, and there isn’t loads of intranational pvp stuff. There is some, but it tends to be on the group level, e.g. Halls disagreeing with each other, or Thanes meetings becoming somewhat excitable, or people not liking a particular person in a national position so pushing against them, or even the splitting up of the Spoils of Skarsind.

I think there’s an element to any nation having some internal pvp stuff, based around national positions if nothing else. I think hoping for no conflict of any kind (even if it’s just ‘I paid more than you’ a la Brass Coast) within a nation probably isn’t going to happen.

IMO, the real key to making sure you have a good base and somewhere to work from is the group you’re part of, and I’ve often found that ‘Banner’, ‘Coven’ or ‘Sect’ is a good basic unit to consider ‘us’. If you want a ‘knives out’ group where you all work together, then there are plenty out there. I think playing Empire solo could be difficult or overwhelming.

Then just pick your goals, pick your targets, pick your aims, and… GO!

E.g. I have a variety of ‘us’ groups, dependant on situation. Within our group we have little mini-groups, which is the smallest ‘us’ I can imagine. Then there’s Coven, Banner, family, Hall, Virtue dedication, Winter ritualist, Conclave order, people Savik likes, Conclave, Nation, Empire, people who are trying to work with the same eternal(s), useful people, the list is endless… deciding which ‘us’ is relevant to any particular situation is often fun :slight_smile:

14

[quote=“HertsJ”]
I think it’s more that I am having trouble seeing a way to get into the game, and what the nation would do to someone who turns up at Anvil without friends or allies and says “I’m here to help”! [/quote]

In the Brass Coast that will depend on what skills you have. If you’re a pure ritualist you’ll likely be directed to the Hakima, groups of ritualists with no families who serve their tribe first, the Coast second, and the Empire third.

If you’re a priest you’ll be gathered into an impromptu meeting of the Brass Coast National assembly (aka you’ll meet at least two out of the other four synod priests, and a very fun Sutannir :smiley:) while we work out what role you can play in serving the nation’s spiritual and political interests. If you are a priest of Prosperity we will love you forever… the majority of the Prosperity assembly is the League, and we want to have enough people to balance out their power block.

If you’re a purveyor of sweet foods most of the families will probably buy a little, and my family will offer to help you sell them… in fact that’s probably true for anything you’re trying to sell.

If you’re a soldier you’ll be directed towards the Generals or their Adjutants. The Brass Coast military is surprisingly cohesive.

And whatever you choose to be, one or more families will try and recruit you to help in their personal pet projects.

15

Speaking from within dawn there is (if you want it) the potential for lethal PVP in elections or pretty much any other way of dealing with things
Sir Basil would like the duck but Lady Rosemary wants the fish soloution? FIGHT!! (bonus for knowing where i nicked those two from)
Generally external to the nation we dont have any beef with anyone except the marches (but the’re a bunch of mud eating pig f**kers so we are justified in disliking them) Internal the noble houses rub along reasonably well (apart from house Seren because they’re batshit) you can see the powerblocks from who throws their hat in the ring come senator elections. But even houses that don’t get on Seren and Novarian for example there’s no non co-operation. I dropped all the anti venoms I had to the Novarians when they were dealing with problems in the rose gardens of the castle of thorns.

16

[quote=“Ferrero”]I generally suggest never joining a group based on an advert; you don’t know anything about them unless you meet them on the field, and if they have to advertise for people it’s a worrying indicator, to my mind.
[/quote]

I agree, there’s nothing quite like being in a strong group with clear goals for mutual support and sharing the fun. Here’s the problem: I do not have a group. I don’t see that I have any real options to break into the game other than

a. join solo and try to find a group in play
b. try to find a group online and join them

(obviously there’s c. don’t bother at all, but that’s a little defeatist)

[quote=“Iulian”]OK, so, let’s imagine someone of my nation turned up to me without resources or allies and said that they were here to help, basically setting off the ‘interested newbie’ flag. …
[/quote]

I like that, I really do. But how do you raise the interested newbie flag without raising the “isolated newbie, let’s get all his stuff and/or block him” flag? After all, someone you have supported has the potential to become an enemy. Someone you have mercilessly crushed will never be able to!

17

I recommend a LARP I go to where I don’t have to worry about that sort of thing. It’s called Empire

18

If you have managed to make enemies of everyone you have ever supported, you have Won Empire. Please collect your trophy you magnificent bastard.

Someone you have supported has the potential to defect, sure. However, why would they unless you piss them off or they are massively treacherous? Someone you have blocked for no damn reason has the motivation to be snapped up by a more friendly and welcoming group and honed into a fine blade to shank your plans in the back with. The only people who go around trying to blatantly dick over newbies either have a wierd idea of how to play or they are doing it for some Unreasonable Opinion and have targeted you because of something to do with your PC (for example they hate Lineaged and you’re a Briar). Which means they have enemies, and you should be able to find those enemies and say “I hate That Guy too, let’s DO Stuff”.

They are a minority, because Empire is powered by mates. Covens, Synod voting blocs, elections, battles. If you’re not looking at a bright-eyed newbie and going “Eeeeexcellent, a new minion!”, someone else is going to acquire said newbie for their power bloc.The trick is to have something to sell, and sell it to the right people. If you’re a Priest,there will be someone who wants you to vote their way. If you’re a soldier, someone will want you in their unit. If you’re a wizard, someone will want you helping them do BIGGER MAGIC. Because of this, having an ally is way better than trying to screw someone out of a few resources. Unless you’re cackling about False Virtues or waving some sort of I AM A GIANT LIABILITY flag, people should want you along because Mates Are Overpowered.

If you want game, you can also try writing some completely unreasonable pamphlets and trying to get people’s attention by being a total fanatic/heretic/sorcerous nincompoop. Go and create a load of social PvP and then watch people line up to take a swing at your PC with Politics. Vasti’s Penitents and Evander Slak are infamous characters who got noticed by making repeated, obvious poor life choices. Do it well and people will think “hey, that’s a cool roleplayer, when they explode I want them on my team, Fun will happen”.

There’s the Knight-Errant archetype in Dawn which is literally “going round looking for a group”.
Any of the people on here who have posted advice should be willing to help if you find us IC.
Finally, if all else fails Join the Marches or the Prosperity Assembly and we’ll find you stuff to do.

19

I like that, I really do. But how do you raise the interested newbie flag without raising the “isolated newbie, let’s get all his stuff and/or block him” flag? After all, someone you have supported has the potential to become an enemy. Someone you have mercilessly crushed will never be able to![/quote]

I don’t have an ‘isolated newbie = target’ response. [edit] As Jim says, I do notice ‘giant liability’ flags, but you usually have to be a frothing psychopath or a screaming heretic to set them, and such people don’t come across as newbies :slight_smile:

Seriously, robbing newbies is not worth my time. Not when I can convince them of the rightness of my cause and get them to chip in ‘their part’ - so now I have used exactly as many resources in exactly the same way as if I’ve robbed them, except I have a friend rather than an enemy and I’ve got one more person with sunk costs in my endeavour, whatever it is this week. Worst case, I got their money spent well and gave them something useful to do. Best case, I have a powerful new ally. (Also, yes, your resources are valuable - but I have sources of income that are an order of magnitude bigger and actively make me friends, why do I need to risk making an enemy for a lousy throne and a half?)

Blocking newbies out of the game is not worth my time. IC, it’s completely counter to my philosophy - my nation believes not in giving people fish, but in teaching them to fish (or better still, teaching them to teach other people to fish). We believe that for the Empire as a whole to grow and prosper, everyone needs to know everyone and everyone who would be interested needs to have all the information. Yes, there is information I’m not giving you if I think you can’t be trusted with it - but it’s stuff so esoteric that if you heard it your reaction would likely be ‘huh?’, but if you repeated it in the wrong circles their reaction would be ‘ohhhhh. That’s really interesting’.
OOC, if I block you out you won’t have fun and then you won’t play my game any more. That’s no fun.

The best way to avoid having enemies is to make friends with them. Roughly speaking, a newbie isn’t being ‘supported’ in a manner that will lead to them having the power to betray you, they are being recruited to support someone else.

(IC I’m the really tall Urizen briar-shaped blur. I’m basically always up for providing any kind of assistance or resource to anybody: the only time people will be fobbed off is if I’m too busy, and they will be fobbed off with directions to someone less busy and equally helpful.)

20

At my most cynical you are the most valuble resource that you are carrying around, yes you might have 7 mana, and if I try really hard I might be able to steal that mana of you, or trade it off you for a slight profit.
If I successfully recruit you and get you nice and happy within my coven that’s 7 mana an event some of which is probably getting spent on things that will directly or indirectly benefit me. Not to mention more magnitude towards the rituals, another pair of eyes and ears on the field, votes in the conclave. Depending on nation possibly more votes for national things.
Totally crushing someone in empire is hard, yes I could take everything from you somehow, and start of next event you will have fresh resources and a goal to motivate you towards screwing me over. (Theoretically you could murder them, but anyone who starts murdering that indiscriminately won’t last long.)

Echoing Jim’s comment, I’d be more than willing to offer help if you find me IC, advice or introductions. Outside of Dawn I’m not going to pretend I’ll be a great help my game at present is reasonably intranation. However within the nation I have a range of contacts in every section of the game.